Obituary - David Stogton

[Jelly]

Times Obituary for David Stogdon - one of the early RIB designers
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle3377532.ece
I hope you don't mind the link John, but this seems a missing chapter in my knowledge of rib history which I expect was also missing in others.
James

[havener]

Remarkable guy.

One can't help but think today's progressive and competence based recruitment techniques, of which the RNLI is a major user, would he wouldn't get through the first sift.

Shame really that so many of his products are used purely to save drowning chavs and feral children!

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by Jelly

I hope you don't mind the link John, but this seems a missing chapter in my knowledge of rib history which I expect was also missing in others.

Thanks for posting it. I have to admit that I had never heard of David Stogton. It's quite a story - he must have been a fascinating man.

John

[codprawn]

Amazing - and to think he's the bloke who designed those incredible Arie Visser rescue RIBs. Not only that but he shot down 3 Stukas from a sinking ship!!!

[alystra]

Originally Posted by havener

Remarkable guy.

One can't help but think today's progressive and competence based recruitment techniques, of which the RNLI is a major user, would he wouldn't get through the first sift......

I'm sure you're right. He wouldn't have been allowed to shoot down three Stukas either.

'You seem to have shot down three Stukas without first obtaining a Certificate of Competence in Stuka Shooting Down. Is this true?'

'Yes, I'm a boat designer.'

'Mmm! Neither do you seem to have filed a Risk Assessment before pulling the trigger. Do you realise that such actions by unqualified operatives are dangerous, and without such an assessment lives could have been put in jeopardy?'

'Yes. Er, I was thinking about this boat I'm designing.'

'Your actions could well have put the whole organisation in a very difficult position with our sponsors/shareholders. Such actions by unqualified, and therefore incompetent, staff are not to be tolerated.'

'Yes, but I've got this great idea for a revolutionary new type of boat...'

'Have you got a Revolutionary Boat Design Certificate of Competence?'

'Er, no. There aren't any.'

'I'm sorry son, without such qualifications you are incompetent and a Health and Safety risk. I'll have to let you go.'

Mmmm. Don't suppose we'll see many more amazing people like him again.

[Jelly]

Telegragh Obit
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../15/db1501.xml

[DGR]

Completely agree - I was amazed when I read the obit in the Times - I'd never heard of him. How come he didn't get more credit for RIB design?

Anyway - maybe now that the RNLI have run into problems with the FCB2 (no good in the rough, apparently) maybe they should go and look at what the Dutch are doing with their RIBS?



Not wishing to start a fight......

[codprawn]

In fairness a lot of RNLI rescues involve a lot of towing - often of some stupidly large boats and even ships. Waterjets just don't have the same grip as a prop and the heavier the boat the better.

[chris123]

The RNLI are already well aware of the capabilities and drawbacks of KNRM's boats - a lot of knowledge sharing goes on between the various SAR organisations.

Cheers

Chris

[DGR]

Originally Posted by codprawn

In fairness a lot of RNLI rescues involve a lot of towing - often of some stupidly large boats and even ships. Waterjets just don't have the same grip as a prop and the heavier the boat the better.

To be fair - the debate isn't about the water jets - it's about hull performance in big seas. I think that the jets have been tried and tested well enough that they are happy with that method of propulsion.

Originally Posted by chris123

The RNLI are already well aware of the capabilities and drawbacks of KNRM's boats - a lot of knowledge sharing goes on between the various SAR organisations.

I don't doubt that for a minute. It's just a bit weird that even though they share information, they all spend small (or even large) fortunes developing their own boats. Seems rather wasteful of resources.

[chris123]

I think a lot of it is down to different operating conditions and requirements, though I'll be honest and admit it is not my area of expertise so I could be mistaken.

I think perhaps KNRM don't have to deal with the same distances and extreme conditions that the RNLI faces. The RNLI's all weather boats are 'only' capable of 25 knots, but can keep a significant percentage of this speed in all but the very worst conditions. The KNRM boats are faster in good conditions but have to back off sooner and further when the conditions get bad.

I know a lot of time is spent by the RNLI looking at what is already available before any decision to design a new boat / piece of kit is designed. Hence the E class on the Thames, and the Arancia SIB used by the Beach Lifeguards.

Cheers

Chris

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by DGR

To be fair - the debate isn't about the water jets - it's about hull performance in big seas. I think that the jets have been tried and tested well enough that they are happy with that method of propulsion.

You don't see many water jet tugs............

As to hull performance I am not so sure. I always used to believe in heavy displacement hulls being the best but some RIBs with planing hulls can cope with horrendous conditions. Bit like a cork bobbing on the sea!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f7t5y56z7E&feature=user

Obviously when towing the bigger and heavier the boat the better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2WtSPcGpKw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpulNiZH2RM

The last one is a monster!!!

[DGR]

Originally Posted by codprawn

You don't see many water jet tugs............

True. But the RNLI have picked waterjets, and they seem happy about the decision.

Originally Posted by codprawn

As to hull performance I am not so sure. I always used to believe in heavy displacement hulls being the best but some RIBs with planing hulls can cope with horrendous conditions. Bit like a cork bobbing on the sea!!!

That is the problem - finding a compromise. With the RNLI having a stated aim of a 25kt fleet - I can see how it would be difficult to get a small ALB up to that speed whilst keeping the sea keeping qualities of a displacement hull. As Chris points out, with the semi-displacement hull of the Mersey (FCB1) she shouldn't need to slow down in anything but the worst weather/sea conditions - but the fastest Mersey's only get to 17kts flat out.

[codprawn]

What have the RNLI picked waterjets for???

[DGR]

Originally Posted by codprawn

What have the RNLI picked waterjets for???

The FCB2 - the 12m Mersey replacement boat.

[chris123]

Originally Posted by codprawn

What have the RNLI picked waterjets for???

As DGR says, the Mersey replacement, FCB2. The Mersey is beach launched / recovered, so the ability to drive up the beach during recovery makes the process much safer. Switching from props to water jets makes this possible.

From what I can gather, water jets in this application are different to props, rather than better or worse. The different handling characteristics of jets require different techniques to be learnt to get the best out of them.

[chris123]

Originally Posted by codprawn

As to hull performance I am not so sure. I always used to believe in heavy displacement hulls being the best but some RIBs with planing hulls can cope with horrendous conditions. Bit like a cork bobbing on the sea!!!

My broadband is down at the moment so I'm stuck on dial up and can't watch the vids, but horrendous conditions for the RNLI means waves up to 14 to 15 metres high, or perhaps more critically the sort of confused seas you get in areas like the Pentland Firth.

In big seas, any boat traveling at speed is going to tend to take off from the wave crests, particularly a planing hull, and when it lands the flatter the hull the more it is going to slam and the more it is going to hurt (just the same as shallow vee vs. deep vee on a RIB).

You can overcome this to an extent by driving on the throttles, but this is not always possible, particularly at night when you can't see what is coming up and anticipate it.

25 knots in a semi displacement hull is not a problem, but requires more power and therefore weight than a planing hull. Not quite such a problem for a slipway launched Tamar to weigh 35 tonnes, but FCB2 has to be towed on a tractor and trailer so weight is critical.

Cheers

Chris

[Simon B]

JC did a feature on the Dutch lifeboats he designed on Country file today.