New MAIB Safety Digest - including RIB incident

[codprawn]

One bit of advice they always give you is to move around as little as possible to conserve heat. This goes against the grain for me. I used to do a lot of mountain walking/climbing and the only way to keep warm was to keep moving - stop and you die!!!

I have read of a few cases where people have kept still in the water and died - other who keep swimming seem to stand a better chance. Look at cross channel swimmers and those people who have swum miles in artic waters.

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?c...2C135&set_id=1

[Richard B]

I shall quote from "Essentials of Sea Survival" (Ch 4 - Initial and Short Term Imersion) by Frank Golden MD PhD and Michael Tipton PhD:

If you have nothing to hold on to, stay as still as possible in the water to reduce the rate of displacement of buoyant air from your clothing during the critical early minutes of immersion.

Codprawn - I suggest that you should do a Sea Survival course before dishing out any more of your dodgy advice on this subject. It may also save your own life if you're ever in a critical situation.

[The Garfish]

Originally Posted by Richard B

Codprawn - I suggest that you should do a Sea Survival course before dishing out any more of your dodgy advice on this subject.

oi yew nobbur. stopp maikin persunul attaks onn codsporn

wot yew downt reelize iz dat hee iz a werld famus endewrunce swimmer an cann servive forr howers inn cowld worter dat yew meer mawtals wud freez yorr bollox orf inn secunds. (codprorns arr cowld bluddid}

enywaiys att de rait yew ribnobburs gett flikt owt ov yorr botes i wud recomend warin a geko helmit wiv too blakk borls onn de topp soe dat de resst ov de botin werld cann neegowshiate de sowlint wivowt leevin blud stayned bitts ov worter orl ova de fkin plase.

gArf

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Richard B

I shall quote from "Essentials of Sea Survival" (Ch 4 - Initial and Short Term Imersion) by Frank Golden MD PhD and Michael Tipton PhD:

If you have nothing to hold on to, stay as still as possible in the water to reduce the rate of displacement of buoyant air from your clothing during the critical early minutes of immersion.

Codprawn - I suggest that you should do a Sea Survival course before dishing out any more of your dodgy advice on this subject. It may also save your own life if you're ever in a critical situation.

I was NOT dishing out advice - merely trying to get a debate going on a subject that could save people's lives - of course the experts are ALWAYS right aren't they???

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by The Garfish

oi yew nobbur. stopp maikin persunul attaks onn codsporn

wot yew downt reelize iz dat hee iz a werld famus endewrunce swimmer an cann servive forr howers inn cowld worter dat yew meer mawtals wud freez yorr bollox orf inn secunds. (codprorns arr cowld bluddid}

enywaiys att de rait yew ribnobburs gett flikt owt ov yorr botes i wud recomend warin a geko helmit wiv too blakk borls onn de topp soe dat de resst ov de botin werld cann neegowshiate de sowlint wivowt leevin blud stayned bitts ov worter orl ova de fkin plase.

gArf

Well said gArfy

[prairie tuber]

Did any of you watch the videos I linked?

[prairie tuber]

The topics of Boat Safety and Cold Water/Sea Survival & Rescue probably warrant their own forum because of their importance. Whadaya think JK?

[The Jackeens]

Originally Posted by prairie tuber

Did any of you watch the videos I linked?

'The Ice Water Immersion' snippet was interesting! Liked the bit where he suggested freezing bits of oneself to the ice when in danger of losing consciousness (His 'mushroom float' can't have been fun either!)

Many MOBs won't have the luxury of a ledge to support much of the body out of the water (unless they are near the boat) therefore staying afloat will be a priority.


Will catch the other segment next time. Nice one prairie tuber!

Kathleen

[Richard B]

That guy is excellent, and the technique of freezing the arms to the ice is incredible!

[The Jackeens]

Originally Posted by Richard B

the technique of freezing the arms to the ice is incredible!

It's gotta take nerve though!

[Alex Brown]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Are they refillable or one use only? I've never used one.The reason I highlighted the other one is it just needs to be charged with air-ie a lot cheaper.

Single use only I think. The instructions only tell you how to use it, and there is a date of expiry as well just like you get on flares.

-Alex

[fred bolton]

Originally Posted by codprawn

I have read of a few cases where people have kept still in the water and died - other who keep swimming seem to stand a better chance. Look at cross channel swimmers and those people who have swum miles in artic waters.

There are probably only a handful of swimmers who have swum in water at around 0 degrees C and they will have spent months or even years aclimatising. I could probably swim 5 or 10 miles in a swimming pool, in arctic waters I bet I couldn't manage 10 metres. similarly Channel swimmers spend months training and aclimatising in cold water.

That said what do you do if you fall overboard and your boat drifts away?

Say on a warm sunny day in March, in uk waters, wearing light clothing and a lifejacket but no VHF say a mile from shore. I think I would be sorely tempted to try and swim for it since hypothermia is probably going to get me one way or another - What is the correct course of action?

[prairie tuber]

Also keep in mind that the coldwater swimmers are accompanied by a support boat where they are closely watched. If they get in trouble/hypothermic they know they can be immediately plucked from the water.
If you get unintentionally immersed in cold water you have to consider your odds of getting assistance and how quickly it would come. If you're well offshore and have no chance of recovery without assistance, you need to do everything you can to conserve you body heat for as long as you can until that assistance hopefully arrives. If you are close to shore, then maybe you can get there through your own efforts (maybe not).

The greater the bouyancy you suit provides (and the less water it absorbs), the better you would be able to propel yourself through the water. The 3rd of those videos really shows this when comparing those 2 different snowmobile suits.

[Milan]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

I agree. I don't consider the wrist to be a suitable place for attaching a kill cord for two reasons: it tends to snag on the steering wheel, and it's likely to come off when you need it most.

Clipping onto the lifejacket is secure, but I've found that it still tends to get in the way. Round the knee keeps it secure and out of the way - that's my choice every time.

John

Same here round the leg everytime normally stays out the way of everything you dont want it round your wrist when your working the wheel and throttle in heavy sea conditions

[Biggles]

Around the leg is the option taught at my RYA centre for securing the Kill Cord.
For me though I find this my less favourable position because of two factors.

a) Out of sight out of mind. Whilst wearing a drysuit I find myself constantly looking down to see if the Kill Cord is still on.

and the following is the reason I look down.

b) On my last boat I had an old Kill Cord that had lost its elasticity, similar to the picture of the one from the boat in the MAIB report, this meant the Kill Cord kept slipping down. If I was to lift my foot from the deck for some reason then it could inadvertantly come off.

For this reason I now attach my Kill Cord to my Life Jacket on the buckle. Just low enough to be out of the way of the steering wheel but also in my peripheral field of view for me to be constantly reminded that its correctly fitted.

[prairie tuber]

I clip the kill cord to a carabiner that my waist belt goes through. For me it is both the most secure and least obtrusive location.

[fred bolton]

Originally Posted by prairie tuber

I clip the kill cord to a carabiner that my waist belt goes through. For me it is both the most secure and least obtrusive location.

Sounds good to me, great vids by the way

[whiteminiman]

Originally Posted by codprawn

One bit of advice they always give you is to move around as little as possible to conserve heat. This goes against the grain for me. I used to do a lot of mountain walking/climbing and the only way to keep warm was to keep moving - stop and you die!!!

You have to bear in mind the differences between loosing heat into the air and loosing heat into the water.

Due to the comparative inefficience of air as a heat-transfer medium, the body can metabolise enough heat to counterbalance the heat lost into the air (I don't know what temperature this becomes untrue). Movement, increases the metabolic rate, and so heat production.

With a human body in water of less than 25C the heat loss into the water already outweighs the metabolic heat production. So by using up energy to move you are not gaining anything - the energy would be better used in maintaining the survival of the core organs.

So, the water in the UK will kill you through cold. It's just a matter of time. It will even kill the channel swimmers etc... although as has already been said, acclimitisation plays a large part in their abilities.

Cheers, WMM

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by whiteminiman

You have to bear in mind the differences between loosing heat into the air and loosing heat into the water.

Due to the comparative inefficience of air as a heat-transfer medium, the body can metabolise enough heat to counterbalance the heat lost into the air (I don't know what temperature this becomes untrue). Movement, increases the metabolic rate, and so heat production.



Cheers, WMM

You are talking about still air - with windchill and wet conditions it can be very bad on land as well - who knows - maybe nearly as bad as water. Water will not go below 0C - what about being soaking wet and 60mph wind in -18C temperature? I suspect then it's a different story.

There are all sorts of ways of helping yourself survive - I once saved myself from frostbite by putting my gloved hands into plastic freezer bags - the difference was incredible - totally cut out the wind.

I wonder how much it would help in the water if you were to use some big elastic bands around your ankles and wrists for example - that would help even a cheap nylon suit to retain some warmer water.

[fred bolton]

Originally Posted by codprawn

. Water will not go below 0C -

Wrong again salt water goes down to -21.1 degrees C before it freezes