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Old 26 September 2008, 11:15   #11
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Hmmm. Seen his before somewhere!

Should I be worried?
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Old 26 September 2008, 11:16   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codprawn View Post
It's not only with boats though - everything sold in Europe is supposed to have a CE mark and if it isn't it's deemed unsafe. That means our nice shiny American propellors are total crap and we must ditch them NOW - and if trading standards found out they would take them off us!!!
Factually innacurate. Only products falling within the 20 product directives can be CE marked. And unless a prop falls under the category of "machinery" then it would not be applicable.
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Old 26 September 2008, 11:18   #13
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Originally Posted by codprawn View Post
To compare a Prosport to a Ferryman because they had "a similar shaped hull" is totally ridiculous - so do Revengers.
but thats not what he said, he said by coincidence they have a similar hull. the comparison was to the way that the survey work was innadequate.
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Old 26 September 2008, 12:09   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polwart View Post
but thats not what he said, he said by coincidence they have a similar hull. the comparison was to the way that the survey work was innadequate.
To me it seemed to be implying that the hull was of a similar standard and I am sure most people read it the same way!!!
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Old 26 September 2008, 12:45   #15
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Quote:
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.... he said by coincidence they have a similar hull.
Is that similar in style, materials, build quality, colour, internal structures, ....? It could mean anything so it's meaningless.
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Old 26 September 2008, 13:30   #16
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An 'all too' familiar story to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClassyBoats View Post

13. Second – hopefully this will be another wake-up call to Trading Standards (responsible for RCD compliance), The MCA (Coding), Marine Surveyors and boat owners. The sea is dangerous enough in itself, without being put at un-necessary additional risk by those who should know better.
Its the boat builders who should know better most of all !!

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14. Thirdly – remember that the CE plate rules are complicated and the plate on your boat may only indicate that the builder has “self-certified” that the boat meets RCD acceptable standards. You still depend, in this case, on that builder’s integrity and judgment. This is the argument for employing the Marine Surveyor who should bring a critical and expert eye to see that things are as they should be. While this did not help in this particular case, it should have done so.
Assuming also that at no point in time could the surveyor ever be in the pocket of the builder. In the case of my own transom failure, my boat was CE marked, .. so which surveyor did the maths on it, that passed it I wonder ?? .. you get my point ?

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15. Fourthly – Hopefully there will be a wake up call in the industry that the TCF is an essential document.
Couldnt agree more and it should be available to everyone most of all the buyer, you wouldnt need to be too technical to spot the huge differences in underfloor construction for example to see which are the weak built boats !! Buyers should be more aware of the fact that this type of document exists, and shouldnt be afraid of asking for it.


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After the judgment in this case, the High Court has now set in public stone - ie case law (first time?????) several clear guidelines and standards - including that the Coding surveyors should have seen the Technical Construction File - or if this was not available found some other way to confirm that the boat they were coding had been properly designed and built.
This is too retrospective IMO and in bold 'is' the 'fudge' .. all manufacturers should be forced to produce a TCF Doesnt the RCD state that that should be the case ?

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Originally Posted by codprawn View Post
The Ferryman had almost no stringers or any other kind of internal hull structure. My Prosport has massive internal structure.
Indeed .. my Northcraft had nout but 2 strigers from stem to stern, utterly pathetic for an 8.5m boat, no wonder it went the way it did. Getting what you paid for is not the point. As the OP stated, this is a serious business and builders should not be allowed to get away with this blatant under engineering to generate company profit, at peoples safety expense
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Old 26 September 2008, 13:30   #17
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Is that similar in style, materials, build quality, colour, internal structures, ....? It could mean anything so it's meaningless.
JW - the original post said "similar shape". I assumed it meant they both splashed the same original
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Old 26 September 2008, 13:40   #18
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To clarify - the comment about the similar hulls only referred to the hull shape and the coincidence that the Ferryman and Prosports used a similar very sea-kindly shape.

In this case, after the transom failed and it became obvious that there were problems, it was impossible to ascertain whether other parts of the structure were properly designed/specified - and expert evidence from David Cox (who was also the expert used in the MAIB in the investigation of Big Yellow) indicated serious doubts about the adequacy of the lay-ups and structure of stringers and bulkheads.

In the absence of any evidence of quality control, it was also impossible to say that any other Prosports RIB was built to the same design/specification.

The Trial Judge concluded that the many warning signs had been missed and that the surveyors had not done a proper job. This is the significant similarity to Big Yellow. The worrying aspect is not that mistakes were made (anyone can make mistakes) but rather that they genuinely did not believe that looking out for these warning signs or investigating when there was inadequate information should even be part of the job.
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Old 26 September 2008, 14:46   #19
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I am intrigued. In this case the buyer seems to have engaged the services of a specialist marine surveyor. This was probably very fortuitous as it turns out.

How common is it for the buyer to employ a surveyor when buying a brand new RIB?

Was this only done because the RIB was being built outside the EU? i.e. had it been a UK builder would the buyer have trusted the RCD system itself?

Do people usually employ surveyors on 2nd hand ribs? I think it is more common on yachts - but perhaps that is higher value and driven by the finance company requirements.

Actually I think the important lesson here is to use a professional surveryor as - even if they cock up their role - the courts will offer you protection which will presumably end up being paid by the defendants professional indemnity insurance whereas a claim against prosport would probably have just forced the owner into bancrupcy and the buyer looses out.
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Old 26 September 2008, 15:29   #20
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Classy Boats, would you like to identify youself, your particular interest in this and indicate the reasons for your posting this on Ribnet. Given that you presently have only three posts to your name, you must have reason to publicise this case.

As an aside, Codprawn's Prosport build is on Ribnet, including a number of pictures, and the build appears to be satisfactory. Although there was suspicion by some forum members at that time that documents were not likely to be forthcoming if required.
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