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Old 10 March 2005, 14:25   #11
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Jono and Searider are correct. Best to check the history of the moulds. A mould without its design rights is worth very little, alot of builders chop there moulds up when they stop using them. Realistically you could take a mould off a bout for the same price as you could make the boat hull for so they arent exactly costly to produce. If you are looking at using a mould to make yourself a one off, you will probably be better buying a hull ready made. There is a knack to GRP and a proffesional builder can make one in a lot less time than the amateur. There is the fun level though and the sense of achievement when you are blasting around on the thing!
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Old 10 March 2005, 15:02   #12
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Home builds are a way of keeping the cost down but also bear in mind that you will not be able to sell it on the open market.
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Old 10 March 2005, 16:15   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jono
If the manufacturer is still in business, would he sell off a mould for a current product?
pascoe did with sr8s now licensed under ribeye.. so it does happen..

i heard about a ribtec 9m mould for sale, but quite rightly jono i do not see why they would sell it if its legit!!

Ive heard that a change of 5% is sufficient to rubish all rights!! not alot is it but if you buy the mould legit but from the designer/builder but he wont do a deal over the rights!! is it better than splashing? least he gets some money from the deal!!

So if the ribtec is legit and your allowed to build em, what about if you chop off a metre and make a mould now the size of one of ribtecs models??

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Old 10 March 2005, 16:24   #14
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Is the ribeye not just based on the ocke mannifelt wotsit hull design and the sr8 is still being used but under the pascoe international name?

Also, how do you quantify a change in design? For example, if I got a hull and changed some of the lines, chines etc and then made a mould from it, how do I know how much I need to change to make it into something new and of "my" design?!

Tim
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Old 10 March 2005, 17:38   #15
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I would have thought if (XYZ) ribs were 6m in length & had 3 chineís per side and a hull thickness of 3mm with all cables lying on the deck, & mine was 5.9m in length with 4 chineís per side with a hull thickness of 5mm with all cables under the deck.
HOW could (XYZ) say it was their design? Itís a different length thickness & looks different. (All the changes above would be very easy to do)
Itís now my design Iíve taken something & changed it, (improved it) after all thatís what they all do donít they? If they didnít there would only be one Rib manufacturer & as we all know the number of rib manufacturers are growing by the day.
When you purchase a (XYZ) rib you are not just buying the idea of a hull with a tube round it are you? You are surly buying a complete package the hull length, width, height, number of chineís, deck construction, reinforcing between hull & deck, routing of cables etc, etc, etc.
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Old 10 March 2005, 18:22   #16
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It's the shape

The "design" is the shape of the hull. How thick it is made and where the cables go is another matter.

Westfield Sportscars were threatened with severe litigation in the late 1980s because their car was too similar to Caterhams. It was almost identical. They had to change the body styling and shape. The chassis stayed the same though!

I don't have any first hand knowledge of how a judge would decide if a hull was too similar - will the "new" design hull fit into the "old" design mould?

Perhaps it would be worth contacting someone who should know.

The Tohatsu / Solent / Phantom RIBs are allvery similar.
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Old 10 March 2005, 18:35   #17
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Its an interesting subject. If I took a hull and say tweaked the chines to make them a little bigger, maybe stuck a planning wedge on the bottom, changed the transom angle etc would I have done enough to make it "my" design?! As you say Duncan, how would a judge decide? Evey case would have to be assessed individually.

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Old 10 March 2005, 21:10   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimtim
Is the ribeye not just based on the ocke mannifelt wotsit hull design and the sr8 is still being used but under the pascoe international name?

Also, how do you quantify a change in design? For example, if I got a hull and changed some of the lines, chines etc and then made a mould from it, how do I know how much I need to change to make it into something new and of "my" design?!

Tim
i believe pascoe sold the sr8 moulds but i know definatly the moulds. he isnt allowed to make em anymore, my mate asked him and he said NO, maybe he will read this and explain?

Im not sure how you would quantify changes as a % im sure mr fuller would know!! ill post a link in BM see if anyone else knows!!
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Old 11 March 2005, 04:44   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtflash
pascoe did with sr8s now licensed under ribeye.. so it does happen..
Actually that's completely wrong.

Pascoe had the licence (from Ocke Mannerfelt) to build the 8m boat as a sterndrive boat only.

A south african lot had the licence to build the OB version.

Niether company 'owned' the rights to the hull design, they just had a licence from Mannerfelt to build them, paying a royalty on each boat 'built and sold', the design remained the property of Ocke Mannerfelt.

Pascoe, rather naughtily built a few OB boats, and the SA bunch found out, got pissed off, and stopped Pascoe building any more.

Ribeye must have had a deal with the SA bunch/Ocke, they didn't 'buy' Pascoes moulds.

I think he (Mark) stopped building the 8m entirely coz there really wasn't that much call for the sterndrive version, and they're a bit prone to stuffing anyway, whereas the 9m hull (B28 Batboat running surface) which he had the licence to build both OB & Sterndrive, was superb.

So, In answer to some comments on this thread, Mark Pascoe owned the mould to the SR8, but didn't own the design (of the hull) only the licence to build them, and pay royalties to Ocke.

Clear as mud?
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Old 11 March 2005, 04:47   #20
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Buying a mould

The rights than come with a mould depend entirely on what was agreed with the owner of the rights to the design. This may be the designer, the owner of the mould, or someone else entirely. If the owner of the moulds does not own the design or have permission to use the design, then you will acquire no rights when you buy the mould.

A few of the many possible scenarios:

You buy a mould and the exclusive design rights outright
Then it's yours. You can do whatever you want with it. Make boats, licence it to other boat builders, make copies of the mould and sell them, whatever.

You buy a mould and non-exclusive design rights
You can do whatever you want with it. Make boats, licence it to other boat builders, make copies of the mould and sell them, whatever. It may also have been sold to other people who can also do the same.

You buy a mould with unlimited licence to use it, but you don't own the design
You can use it to make an unlimited number of boats. You may or may not be entitled to sell on your licence with the mould. You can't make copies of the mould unless specifically agreed.

You buy a mould and pay a licence fee each time it is used
You can use it to make an unlimited number of boats (or possibly an agreed number). You may or may not be entitled to sell on your licence with the mould. You can't make copies of the mould unless specifically agreed.

You buy a mould that has been "splashed" and the owner has no legal rights to use it
You have effectively bought stolen property


Buying or licensing a design

If you want want to make your own mould, then you can either design it yourself, commission someone else to design it for you, or use an existing design. Depending on the deal that you can do with the designer or desing owner, the results will be similar to the scenarios for buying a mould, except you'll either end up with a file of CAD drawings, or a plug to make your mould from.


Modifying a design

There are two major issues here.

- What is the right, fair and ethical thing to do
- What you might be able to get away with

If you copy someone else's design outright, or use it as a basis for your design, then you should pay towards the work that has gone into it. However, as it appears to be a difficult and costly exercise to take court action against even blatant design theft, "splashing" a hull (taking a mould off an existing boat) is not uncommon.

Some hull designs have been splashed, modified and resplashed so many times over the years that is can be hard to distinguish who actually owns the legitimate rights. Others are very distinctive and are more easy to protect.

Making a few tweaks here and there may mean that you are unlikely to be successfully prosecuted for stealing someone else's work, but it doesn't necessarily make it right!

John
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