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Old 09 October 2013, 18:02   #31
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Back in my laser days I managed to gain lots of places & in one case almost win (curses - someone sailed faster than me! ) simply due to superior capsize drill.

Couple of observations having guessed what was going on since this afternoon ( interesting reading all your comments what I perceived I was going to see matched up pretty well with the vid tonight) but......

1) I have to agree - that was a rescue boat - dinghy crew combined effort. Remember the bloke in the water might have been off the rescue boat - these guys are usually dinghy sailors too & will expect to jump in to assist as & when required so wear wetsuits & buoyancy aids.....

2) I think the apparent length of the tow rope is somewhat foreshortened. look at both the wake & the way the transom of the rib move - there's not a snowball's chance that would happen with a short tow, and if I were the helm of the rib I'd be a tad concerned about prop fouling both on the mooring & the dinghy's sheets etc. on a short tow anyway. I reckon the rib is a lot further towards the camera than the pic might imply.....

3) once clear of the yacht in that wind & tide the bloke in the water is well clear of the prop - even on a short tow - it's not like he's going to rapidly drift towards the rib!

4) if the guy in the water can hang onto a mooring lne with one hand & tie on a tow rope with his teeth / other hand I would suggest he probably isn't injured! Sometimes the rescue boat crew dive in to assist. (see observation 1)




Just observations, but having been on both sides of that sort of game.......
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Old 09 October 2013, 18:04   #32
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I am not saying every Safety boat crew is perfect, or that the correct decision is always made, but then you could say the same about any sporting ref.
safety boat crew are not not (usually / when properly resourced) "referees". I'm not suggesting that safety boats shouldn't have the ability to end someone's race (at which point they may be more willing to cooperate) but I am wary of the idea that sailors should just do as they are told.

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What you you rather have an over zealous crew or a lax one that fails to act until its too late?
Better to act early and have to say sorry than act late and have no one to say sorry too.
depends what 'acting' is - if just involves intervening then its fine, but all intervention carries some risk; if safety boat crew start acting like they are infallible and ordering dinghy sailors around it is potentially dangerous when the sailor has a reasonable/rational concern.
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Old 09 October 2013, 18:16   #33
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I'm not seeing the prop danger here. To me, if they backed down too much they were going to foul the prop in the dinghy not hit the sailor in the water.
If they fouled the prop they become another casualty to be dealt with, pinned by the tide over the top of a capsized dinghy and a sailor in the water.

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At least it looked to me that he was "protected" by the dinghy he was clinging to.
For how long, no one can tell he could have been pulled under the boats by the tide, through all the rigging at any point.

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Pulling him free using the capsized black dinghy seems like a 2-for-1 to me. Free the boat from entanglement so the sailor can right it himself or continue to tow it in.
Right up until he gets tangled in the rigging then you could end up towing the boat that is towing him by the ankle.

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For the time being he seemed perfectly capable of holding onto the black dinghy until it was free and a safer/easier approach to to remove him from the water could be done.
Again how long for? Much safer to have him in the safety boat where you can not only ensure he is no longer a victim not getting in the way but can also monitor for things like hypothermia.

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Going bow in and then trying to back out with that wind/tide would not be my approach at all.
It is a valid technique, one I have used literally hundreds if not thousands of times (and i do mean those numbers) and as I said it depends on the boat, and how it handles in the conditions/circumstances. If you note, i gave it as a 2nd option, as an illustration of another technique. If you don't wish you use it that's OK, dosent meant its not valid

I am in no way critisising the coxn in the clip, he was in control and it worked OK, just pointing out some observations, thoughts and techniques I have picked up over the years.
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Old 09 October 2013, 18:24   #34
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safety boat crew are not not (usually / when properly resourced) "referees". I'm not suggesting that safety boats shouldn't have the ability to end someone's race (at which point they may be more willing to cooperate) but I am wary of the idea that sailors should just do as they are told.


depends what 'acting' is - if just involves intervening then its fine, but all intervention carries some risk; if safety boat crew start acting like they are infallible and ordering dinghy sailors around it is potentially dangerous when the sailor has a reasonable/rational concern.
Didn't mean referees as such was using them to illustrate that not everyone agrees with other peoples decisions and perception can change a decision easily.

No one is infallible, but if the safety boat crew decide that intervention is needed with a rational thought process gained from training/experience, then they should act, and worry about the sailor being unhappy (but safe) later.
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Old 09 October 2013, 19:36   #35
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No one is infallible, but if the safety boat crew decide that intervention is needed with a rational thought process gained from training/experience, then they should act, and worry about the sailor being unhappy (but safe) later.
Seriously? The safeties are not there to rescue those who don't want rescuing. If they want to be rescued later that's fine, but with your logic any capsized dinghy requires immediate intervention to prevent something which "could" happen 10, minutes later, 30 minutes later, or never.
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Old 09 October 2013, 19:40   #36
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Seriously? The safeties are not there to rescue those who don't want rescuing. If they want to be rescued later that's fine, but with your logic any capsized dinghy requires immediate intervention to prevent something which "could" happen 10, minutes later, 30 minutes later, or never.
I say again
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No one is infallible, but if the safety boat crew decide that intervention is needed with a rational thought process gained from training/experience, then they should act, and worry about the sailor being unhappy (but safe) later
Laser regional s bft 3, leave em be (count heads).

Oppy nationals Line squalls gusts of 40knts, grab the kids leave the boats!

Been there done that in both situations.
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Old 09 October 2013, 19:45   #37
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They need those things with a rope loop on a long pole like dog catchers use. Drag them into the boat whether they like it or not. Maybe a harpoon?
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Old 09 October 2013, 19:55   #38
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They need those things with a rope loop on a long pole like dog catchers use. Drag them into the boat whether they like it or not. Maybe a harpoon?
Damn, sailor harpoons, why didn't I think of that!
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Old 09 October 2013, 19:59   #39
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No one is infallible, but if the safety boat crew decide that intervention is needed with a rational thought process gained from training/experience, then they should act, and worry about the sailor being unhappy (but safe) later
OMG looks like that dinghy is going to capsize!!! The horrors. Must stop dinghy from capsizing!

You would not get safety boat duty for long around here with your overprotective attitude. And our water is no warmer than yours, with dinghy racing occuring year-round.
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Old 10 October 2013, 02:06   #40
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There are safety boat crews who know exactly what they are doing, and there are crews who are, let's say, less experienced. I wouldn't give any crew blanket authority to tell the "casualty" what to do, I've certainly told some to keep well clear in my time, when I wasn't comfortable with the way they were approaching things.

Best safety boat crew I've met? From the Manly 16 Foot Skiff club in Sydney Harbour who sorted us out with a trashed mast with sail stuck in the broken track and spinnaker wrapped round the lot. Those guys knew exactly what they were up to!

Back to topic - I also vote FOR the safety crew in the vid. The guys in the water look comfortable, actively involved in trying to get their boat free, the distances probably are foreshortened, and getting the guy out by letting him hold onto the boat and get towed out probably beats trying to get the rib in close enough to the mess to extract him, even with a rope. The boat's nearly turtled already anyway and he's towing behind it, seems little risk of entrapment. And nice steering on the tow, must have been a hell of a drag on that towline pulling the dinghy against that wind and tide with the rig underwater. Pretty good job I think, certainly glad others have come in to counter the initial condemnation which I don't see we have the evidence to support
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