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Old 10 October 2015, 08:12   #11
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...It is looking at how we train people to understand the limits of their craft, and themselves. Possibly using ribs for powerboat training doesn't help that?
In a nutshell 'experience', you can't buy it.

20 yrs of skiing on lakes taught him little when it came to leaving the harbour walls.

However, those of us here who think that we have salt water running through our veins, hopefully know who the boss is.
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Old 10 October 2015, 08:22   #12
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You'd probably better stay locked in the house and die from depression or couch potato driven heart disease then!
No - I didn't say I can't balance risk and so can't leave the house, as you point out even that carries a risk. I said I'd want to know I'd done everything I could. Perhaps I should have caveated that with "reasonably" could.

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...It is looking at how we train people to understand the limits of their craft, and themselves.
BUT that is WAY harder than it sounds. For numerous reasons:
  • Craft abilities change in different conditions. Are you going to make people train in F1 - F8 winds?
  • People abilities change with time and other factors (health, fatigue, drink & drugs). You can teach that abilities change but we've seen with car drivers that as people become older some will deny loosing those abilities. Plenty think alcohol/drugs doesn't affect them. Loads of new drivers think they should be allowed to drive a 3litre turbo on the day they pass their test - its only years later that many realise they didn't really have the skills to drive a 1 litre!
  • A weather forecast today for F4-5 might actually only turn out to be F3 just touching F4, so if I cope in that next time its 4-5 I know I will cope fine... ...until it turns out to be F5-6 touching 7. Again you can teach what that means in a classroom - but you learn the realities on the water over time.
  • Peer pressure. Possibly one of the real biggies and really hard to address. So you have got the whole family together, friend has brought her mate along for the weekend. Before you set off the weather looks OK. You drive for 3 hours to do your thing. Forecast has deteriorated, but it still looks OK at the moment. Having the 'balls' to say "sorry guys - we aren't going out" is REALLY tough. (God some people don't some to be able to tell their kids no more Coke or Sweets!) - I'm really not sure thats something that can be taught? Its something you learn...
Unfortunately unless you control the learning environment sometimes things will go tragically wrong while people are learning. (And we are all, always learning all the time).

Gonna be controversial and say maybe we should design out some of the risks. Is there a justifiable reason that a ski boat couldn't be built that could handle the sea conditions the accident happened in? Likewise is there a justifiable reason a bouyancy aid needs to have loops that can get caught on things. Is there a justifiable reason the cleat needs to be able to catch things? You wouldn't expect to buy a car that couldn't drive at 70MPH on UK roads. Why do we accept buying boats that can't handle fairly normal UK sea states?

You wouldn't accept a safety feature like an airbag that inflated and then stopped you getting out the car if it was on-fire. Or a car door that was likely to automatically lock its self if you crashed...

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Possibly using ribs for powerboat training doesn't help that?
I'd bet these guys didn't train in a RIB.

Not many driving schools are teaching people in BMWs or Transit Vans... yet your licence lets you drive them.
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Old 10 October 2015, 08:22   #13
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In a nutshell 'experience', you can't buy it.



20 yrs of skiing on lakes taught him little when it came to leaving the harbour walls.



However, those of us here who think that we have salt water running through our veins, hopefully know who the boss is.

Yup Mother Nature
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Old 10 October 2015, 08:24   #14
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Anyway boys, off to the Fal Oyster Fest now to try to induce my shellfish allergy with many molluscs, washed down with a good glug of local ale.

Have a good afternoon.

Falmouth Oyster Festival | A celebration of Cornish Seafood
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Old 10 October 2015, 08:51   #15
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I'm sure most of us have ventured out at one time or another only to find conditions are worse than we'd estimated.

Brixham is one of those places where an initial look from above the breakwater can be deceptive, and the harbour is so sheltered you don't see the sea state until you clear the harbour wall. I've stuck my nose out from Brixham once or twice to very quickly decide discretion is the better part of valour!

The onshore alarm was raised just c.4 minutes after the event, but without a radio it took 14 minutes for those involved to alert the authorities, by one of the jetskis returning to the slip. Had any of the 3 craft party had a handheld VHF help could have been summoned by them sooner - without one of the party leaving the scene.

Had any of the party been carrying a knife they just may have been able to cut the PFD strap free - they might not due to cold water shock, sea state etc but there would have been more of a chance.

The key thing after this type of event is surely for us to take on board the learnings so that we
a) don't get in the situation in the first place and /or
b) if we do we, we have the equipment to minimise the risks, and the ability to help ourselves and our crews as much as possible

As Mollers has said, the burden this incident will be with the families for ever. we surely want to make sure this does not happen to us or anyone else by learning from it.
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Old 17 July 2016, 04:38   #16
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I see this story and the parents campaign to "licence" boat use is currently the Daily Mail's header story...

Parents of Emily Gardner seek to bring about change in the law | Daily Mail Online

MAIB report here...

https://assets.publishing.service.go...ort21_2015.pdf
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Old 17 July 2016, 07:21   #17
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sad to see this happen and its a remember to me why i bought a rib as they are pretty safe, stay safe chaps
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Old 17 July 2016, 13:13   #18
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Yes the even flotation of RIBS and SIBS spread along their length would prevent exactly the same accident. Seems that Fletcher only had the flotation of trapped air in its pointy bow.
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Old 17 July 2016, 14:42   #19
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sad to see this happen and its a remember to me why i bought a rib as they are pretty safe, stay safe chaps
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Yes the even flotation of RIBS and SIBS spread along their length would prevent exactly the same accident. Seems that Fletcher only had the flotation of trapped air in its pointy bow.
I think we are being complacent if we believe that similar circumstances could not befall a RIB/SIB. The boat was capsized by a large wave from its starboard side - where it floated in a horizontal aspect before starting to sink at the stern. It might be less likely for a RIB to capsize in the first place, and it may be less likely to sink stern first BUT then a modern RCD compliant ski boat should float horizontally when flooded too. The reality is RIBs/SIBs DO capsize. If you want to avoid being a victim to something similar I'd make sure you understand how to helm the boat to minimise the risk of capsize, and reduce the number of "hooks" and "dangly bits" that people might get entangled. Sadly, no matter how much it might help Emily's parents' to cope with their loss, no licensing regime or lifejacket laws will prevent recurrence.
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Old 17 July 2016, 15:41   #20
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Yes agreed Poly never say never... but I did carefully choose the phrase "would prevent exactly the same accident"... with "exactly being the important word.

I hate seeing folks at the slip launching a "bargain" old speedboat with little or no built in flotation and a monster 1970s outboard. Sadly it often goes hand in hand with other basic errors in equipment or use that are obvious to the enlightened.

In truth I was thinking of our SIB which would float as level upside down as the right way up with any potential unexpected snag point hardly holding a person under water at all.... that poor girl was probably about 3m down at the snag point which would have been a hard ask for those that apparently tried to swim down and save her given the inevitable confusion and panic.
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