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Old 07 October 2009, 13:56   #71
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thats interesting if thats right that all boat need codeing for commercial stuff, run with me on this one for a while, small rib from a good company, has rcd, ce plate etc, most likely been in production for 4/5 years, now, if we go to code it with all the kit they say we have to have that boat will probaly fail the rcd test, for if the boat was a few years old it would have been tested with a two stroke on it at best or maybe a load of bodies in it to simulate the weight, now that four strokes are the norm and are much heavier plus all the kit the freeboard at the transom would be too low if not underwater, so without the rcd, no ce plate the boat is not codeable, i'm trying to make some in roads to the mca to suggest that they don't generalise boats in there code book but to look at ribs with a more specific code of practice, after all i wouldn't mind betting that ribs are there biggest part of the codeing, check out what anchors you have to have on a 8.5 m boat, you could use them on a 7 tonne yaght, it's time the code rules were updated properly
Biffer - I'm not sure I fully follow the gist of your sentence.

As I understand it a boat used commercially does not need to comply with the RCD, and e.g. I could buy a brand new Delta which would not be RCD certified (unless I am mistaken) but could be full compliant with the code.

Actually I think in terms of coding yachts (all charter yachts requiring coded) make up a very sizable proportion of the boats.

Actually I think I could probably get my boat (3.9m) through the coding requirements. The liferaft would be a PITA, but presumably would only need to be a 4 man version. It might make it crampt on board and probably would mean I wanted to upgrade to a bigger engine, but I still think I would be able to get it through coding for Cat 5/6 - and the boat probably too small to use predicatbly (weatherwise) beyond that range anyway!
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Old 07 October 2009, 14:09   #72
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See my post #19 on this thread. However, the carve-out for club-owned boats doesn't apply here because, in this case: (a) the boat wasn't 'club owned' and (b) the club paid the owner for the hire of it. So, on both counts, it was not a "pleasure vessel".
I think if challenged the club and owner will point out that they weren't hiring ribs or paying staff but reimbursing reasonable expenses (which is why in an earlier post I said it was niave of the Club Secretary to refer to wages). A professionally crewed coded boat would probably have cost 5x this and I am sure Jono would have been happy to provide this himself.

30 a day for rib fuel and 20 a day for travel etc doesn't seem unreasonable (as expenses) to me.
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Old 07 October 2009, 17:53   #73
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Well if they were paid wages and the club did not deduct tax I would think the Revenue would be interested so perhaps they should "settle" on that basis
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Old 08 October 2009, 04:24   #74
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I think if challenged the club and owner will point out that they weren't hiring ribs or paying staff but reimbursing reasonable expenses (which is why in an earlier post I said it was niave of the Club Secretary to refer to wages). A professionally crewed coded boat would probably have cost 5x this and I am sure Jono would have been happy to provide this himself.

30 a day for rib fuel and 20 a day for travel etc doesn't seem unreasonable (as expenses) to me.
The condition to be satisfied is that the vessel is:
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on a voyage or excursion which is one for which the owner does not receive money for or in connection with operating the vessel or carrying any person, other than as a contribution to the direct expenses of the operation of the vessel incurred during the voyage or excursion
Reimbursement of fuel costs falls within the boundary but travel expenses is (I think) not a "direct expense" so outside it. I don't suppose the MCA would be particularly concerned about this sort of arrangement. The problem (if any), for the owner and the club, is invalidating the owner's insurance, particularly third party liability cover.

If I was a Club secretary and wished to make such an arrangement, I think I would characterise the payment as "reimbursement of fuel and incremental maintenance costs". Obviously the amount of the payment would have to be reasonably consistent with that description.
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Old 08 October 2009, 04:53   #75
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polwart, it is my understanding that you won't get a ce plate without an rcd test, so legally you couldn't buy your new delta or any other new boat in this country, i doubt if you could code a boat unless you have these tests, all chartered boats be them ribs or yachts should be coded and if your'e right about numbers i bet the gap isn't too big, as for codeing your boat, it's not just a liferaft you're needing, reading the code book it looks like they class small ribs as tenders and there is no real code for them, but can you imagine putting all the kit on and getting it surveyed and if i'm right and your free board is less than 250mm (transom height to water line) then it would be fruitless, unless you could get someone to bend the rules slightly
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Old 08 October 2009, 05:23   #76
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polwart, it is my understanding that you won't get a ce plate without an rcd test, so legally you couldn't buy your new delta or any other new boat in this country, i doubt if you could code a boat unless you have these tests, all chartered boats be them ribs or yachts should be coded and if your'e right about numbers i bet the gap isn't too big, as for codeing your boat, it's not just a liferaft you're needing, reading the code book it looks like they class small ribs as tenders and there is no real code for them, but can you imagine putting all the kit on and getting it surveyed and if i'm right and your free board is less than 250mm (transom height to water line) then it would be fruitless, unless you could get someone to bend the rules slightly
Commercial boats don't need RCD catergorys.
Have you seen the transom height on an Atlantic Lifeboat, you can't code them lol!
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Old 08 October 2009, 07:30   #77
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polwart, it is my understanding that you won't get a ce plate without an rcd test, so legally you couldn't buy your new delta or any other new boat in this country,
Sorry that was part of the point I was trying to make (but failed!) - as Joe Public I can't buy a non-RCD rib but as Chewy said Commercially JP Ltd can, and it doesn't need RCD/CE approval. It can still be coded. Indeed it would probably be necessary to code it to prove to trading standards that it was not purchased for "recreational use".

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i doubt if you could code a boat unless you have these tests,
you can. Deltas, Pac22s, etc all have been coded but none are RCD/CE approved.
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as for codeing your boat, it's not just a liferaft you're needing,
I know that - since I have never seriously considered it I might be missing some major items - but I can't off the top of my head think of anything that would sink my boat. I'm not sure what my transom freeboard is fully loaded but it might be 250mm? others on here have had to build up their transom, add a skirt around in in hypalon or do other things to convince the examiner it was OK,
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reading the code book it looks like they class small ribs as tenders and there is no real code for them,
I guess SMALL ribs are not really expected to be opperating commercially with passengers outside categorised waters. There are guidelines for use in "inland waters" which I think take account of many of the issues you highlighy. e.g. small boats may be suitable for certain types of use, ribs may be more capable that larger hardboats.
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Old 08 October 2009, 07:43   #78
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this is all very confusing, are you telling me that you can buy new boats with no ce plates if you use it commercially, which is the whole point of us codeing the boat in the first place, the codeing poeple have ask for all the test results on my boat, in theory what you are saying i didn't have to do any of it, am i reading you right and if this is right i'm going to have a row with the mca
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Old 08 October 2009, 08:29   #79
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this is all very confusing, are you telling me that you can buy new boats with no ce plates if you use it commercially, which is the whole point of us codeing the boat in the first place, the codeing poeple have ask for all the test results on my boat, in theory what you are saying i didn't have to do any of it, am i reading you right and if this is right i'm going to have a row with the mca
Biffer, yes you can buy a commercial rib without RCD. This is why Delta pulled out of the recreational market in 1998 (I think) because it was just too much trouble for the number of sales each year. There main market was in commercial sales. Whether you can sell a new rib in the EEC without CE is another question and I would have thought not.

Having to jump through all the hoops to get a boat coded is completely different from the Recreational CRaft Directive. Had to do the same, complete with lots of bodies on board, tubes inflated, tubes deflated. Measure transom clearance etc and then check all the kit.

Now as to the original problem well:
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Old 08 October 2009, 08:41   #80
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didn't think you could sell a boat without a ce plate here in uk, it's cost me loads and for no reason, they know the boat is commercial why else would i be codeing it yet i've still had to go through all this bollox, time for a cuppa me thinks aarrrrrgh
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