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Old 23 March 2013, 19:12   #31
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Originally Posted by Will75 View Post
The point about the 4 times, is as Tonto says, this is when you MUST alter, and at this point you MAY turn to port which is normally prohibited on a PDV at least. The 4 times is a guide from Cockroft, the distance is not actually defined in the rules.
Yes its not what you said in your earlier post - you implied we 'must' wait until that close before doing anything:


in fact Cockroft suggests you CAN take action as far out as 2 miles, you should take action at least 12 of your own boat lengths before collisions and MUST take radical action if you get within 4 of their boat lengths.

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......Just checked Cockroft, and it gives four times the length of the give way vessel as a guide to the distance when the stand on vessel, the SV, can take its own action.
It probably seems like pedantry / semantics - but there will be many people who want to follow the rules properly and not piss of professional skippers, who might have been inclined to leave it "too late" if they thought that was the expectation. In fact the 'guidance' seems to suggest that a common sense 'let me get out your way' early approach applies.
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Old 23 March 2013, 19:36   #32
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Originally Posted by Ribochet View Post
One for the anoraks

The MCA's position is that

"Although, the use of VHF may be justified on occasion in collision avoidance, the provisions of the COLREGS should remain uppermost, as misunderstandings can arise even when the language of communication is not a problem"

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/mca/mgn_324.pdf
Good point !
Remember years ago heading into Galveston USA onboard a large bulk carrier from the UK and the amount of other vessels large or small calling up all the time on the vhf to ask which side they wanted to pass on , captain used to reply back politely saying stick to the Col regs please ,
pilot said it was common practise though it did cause confusion problems at times .

With regards to the video clip I would have though that any prudent watch keeper would have realised that a constant bearing would have resulted in a close quarter encounter regardless of who was the stand on vessel.

Don't assume you've been seen the other ship could be underway ( Not under command ) in some circumstances .

First basic rules of seamanship ,
Always keep a good lookout !
Never put your foot in a coil of rope!
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Old 23 March 2013, 21:01   #33
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The only action that the tallship could've taken would've been to tack and bare away to stbd. This would've probably have been impossible within the timescale and only delayed the contact by a few seconds if achieved.
Also, an emergency 'crash tack' could've caused mayhem and possibly injury aboard the tallship for little gain.
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Old 24 March 2013, 01:00   #34
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There is also NO right of way in any of the IRPCS...

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Old 24 March 2013, 03:55   #35
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Originally Posted by m chappelow View Post
Good point !
Remember years ago heading into Galveston USA onboard a large bulk carrier from the UK and the amount of other vessels large or small calling up all the time on the vhf to ask which side they wanted to pass on , captain used to reply back politely saying stick to the Col regs please ,
pilot said it was common practise though it did cause confusion problems at times .
The US Coast Guard encourages/requires the use of VHF for collision avoidance, and this is at odds to the MCA guidelines on the use of VHF for collision avoidance. There have been a number of cases of VHF assisted collisions where one vessel calls another, making arrangements, and this is overheard by another vessel, who then thinks he is talking to someone else...... you can see where this goes
However the US also has a different set of Rules of the road for inland waters as well, just to confuse the issue, (along with a different set of bouys, and terminaoligy, but lets not go there eh?) However when in the US, you have to do what they say.

The other part of the rules which do have a bearing here, is that when a vessel takes action at the earlier point, i.e. when it MAY take action there is a requirement that for a PD vessel with another PD vessel (not this case, but relevant to RIBs) is that you should avoid going to port for a vessel on the port side.

When it comes to the point where you MUST take action, then you take whatever action you can to best avoid collision.

Best not get to the second point at all!
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Old 24 March 2013, 04:08   #36
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The only action that the tallship could've taken would've been to tack and bare away to stbd. This would've probably have been impossible within the timescale and only delayed the contact by a few seconds if achieved.
Also, an emergency 'crash tack' could've caused mayhem and possibly injury aboard the tallship for little gain.
Then they sould have taken action when it was possible to do so!

I am certain they had an engine onboard the SV, they might have started it, increased speed and avoided the collision.

doing nothing but sounding a horn is not an option sometimes.

However as stated earlier it is very easy in hindsight to look at collisions and think I could have done that! We carry a book called "Colisions and thier causes" by the Nautical Institute, which has over a hundered case studies of collisions, and the investigations, and court rulings, which we do read from time to time, and although mostly large ships, if you are interested in this subject it is quite enlightenig to read.

It gives an insight to why a court may have ruled as it did, and as they then set precedents the cases going back over a hundred years are still quoted in rulings.

As also mentioned there is NO right of way, just Stand on, and giveway, although the term right of way, and stand on are commonly used in the same context.
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Old 24 March 2013, 04:34   #37
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Originally Posted by Mollers View Post
The only action that the tallship could've taken would've been to tack and bare away to stbd. This would've probably have been impossible within the timescale and only delayed the contact by a few seconds if achieved.
Also, an emergency 'crash tack' could've caused mayhem and possibly injury aboard the tallship for little gain.
I agree. Further, we don't know what was the traffic situation otherwise. Starting low rev diesels takes often much longer than this potential situation was developing, and it is not sure this type of vessel will move faster by the support of the engine.

Increasing speed was maybe the only safe potential action by the tallship, and we don't know if that was an realistic option.
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Old 24 March 2013, 04:48   #38
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The SV wouldn't alter course anyway there Germans
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Old 24 March 2013, 05:41   #39
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The SV wouldn't alter course anyway there Germans
Let's be thankful that the FV wasn't Polish. If it hand been I am sure the SV would have alterered slightly to Port and started it all off again!

I suppose the real point here is, don't get into the situation in the first place which ever vessel you are on but once engaged and between the CAN and MUST point then the rules are clear, the stand-on, stands on!
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Old 24 March 2013, 05:54   #40
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Let's be thankful that the FV wasn't Polish. If it hand been I am sure the SV would have alterered slightly to Port and started it all off again!
guys can we avoid the "racial" / "national" stereotypes please
Quote:
I suppose the real point here is, don't get into the situation in the first place which ever vessel you are on but once engaged and between the CAN and MUST point then the rules are clear, the stand-on, stands on!
Eh, no... the "CAN" = Can start to take avoiding action, i.e. stop "Standing on" waiting for the other fecker to do something. Prior to that, and until he decides to do something he stands on.
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