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Old 27 August 2019, 03:31   #1
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IMPORTANT Diesel Tax changes for boaters!

This is really important for all Diesel boaters, Brexit or not we are still in the EU and this may go ahead.

This new law basically means there will be no red diesel for pleasure boaters

"The government intends to abolish the scheme introduced in 2008 that allowed users of diesel powered private pleasure craft (e.g. yachts, canal boats and motorboats"

" It intends to remove the right of operators of such craft to use red diesel for propulsion and mandate the use of white diesel. Users will be allowed to continue to use red diesel for on-board non-propulsion use where they have a separate fuel tank for this purpose."

Please share this and reply to the below email address

Link: https://bit.ly/2KKBzVK (link to the HMRC document)

If this is to happen it will have big consequences on the price of our fuel.

Please send any comments to the email address that is provided below.

The deadline for this is 9th September 2019

Email address: gary.satchell@hmrc.gov.uk

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Old 27 August 2019, 04:03   #2
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IMPORTANT Diesel Tax changes for boaters!

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Originally Posted by craig_c View Post



The deadline for this is 9th September 2019


Hopefully it won’t be an issue after the 31st October. If it is, welcome to our (outboard) world
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Old 27 August 2019, 04:48   #3
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Yep.

UK lost it's appeal to retain the derogation at the European court. Might be a way out of it after Brexit but at the minute their hands are tied.
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Old 27 August 2019, 08:17   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikey Dave View Post
Hopefully it won’t be an issue after the 31st October.
I think Craig's point:

Quote:
This is really important for all Diesel boaters, Brexit or not we are still in the EU and this may go ahead.
is:

- if somehow Brexit doesn't happen this is clearly likely to be implemented
- if Brexit happens with "a deal" the term of that deal are likely to impact this sort of thing (and even if not see next point)
- if Brexit happens with no deal, then any UK diesel boater who travels to mainland Europe or Ireland is going to face the "marked diesel headache".

OK - now that we've just about avoided politics.

Quote:
If it is, welcome to our (outboard) world
I have to say I think that will be the response most petrol boat owners will have. Many leisure rib users have been dodging tax on diesel since the rules changed - either that or there are some very inefficient eberspachers in use! The problem is not that you would have to pay "fair" tax, but that there is no dockside infrastructure for white diesel in place. That problem will be most pronounced in remote areas; I can imagine all the big yacht marinas switching to white. It will be a PITA for the handful of people who bought a diesel rib to cruise the west coast because dockside diesel is widely available in fishing ports. Ultimately though I can't see an easy solution which will mean UK boats can sail outside UK waters with red in their tanks - so at best you get the rules to stay relaxed provided you never cross the irish sea or channel. Our ability to influence that position is of course going to be greatly diminished (depending on the outcome in October). I actually wonder whether the long term solution is to grin and bare it in the interim and then in areas where there is moderate leisure diesel demand the providers may add (or switch) to white.
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Old 27 August 2019, 08:56   #5
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I actually wonder whether the long term solution is to grin and bare it
How refreshingly Scottish. I'd have thought the threat alone might stave off the tax change for years!

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Old 27 August 2019, 12:25   #6
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We ARE being ripped off by our Government on prices for all our fuel.
Since it was an Eu deal, IF we leave, why not revert to what was the position before? Suggesting this would get a politician a large number of votes. Regarding the petrol users slagging the diesel users reminds me of Rifle shooters slagging Pistol shooters a number of years ago when the Govt. banned the Pistol shooters, not realising they are dividing to rule.
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Old 27 August 2019, 13:25   #7
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Since it was an Eu deal, IF we leave, why not revert to what was the position before?
Because...

If you use red in your tank and then go into the EU... ( So for the south coasters France, Belgium, Holland for the West Coasters - Ireland. ) You are in for a whole hell of a lot of grief. You may get away with saying it's foreign oil... I don't know how a boat coming from Egypt to Gibraltar currently accounts for fuel...

...but getting the red to go away takes ages. So you might find being dipped at entry a pain, but being dipped if you've been there 1 month may be more of an issue...
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Old 27 August 2019, 14:23   #8
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Yep.

UK lost it's appeal to retain the derogation at the European court. Might be a way out of it after Brexit but at the minute their hands are tied.
That isn't actually true, Tango. The derogation was lost in 2007 but the rules implemented then allowed us to use red diesel but pay the equivalent duty and vat as road users. The advantage was that diesel was available for us to use in some places around our coast provided the Registered Dealer in Controlled Oils (RDCO) was willing to sell to the leisure boater.

The issue now is simply the colour of the diesel and it's a good example of the trivial rules that the EU has dumped on all of the EU countries. Rules pertaining to all sorts of consumer usage and products.

Scotland may be particularly hard hit because marinas are few and they also supply to local commercial vessels on a regular basis. Generally I would guess that the commercial sector purchases considerably more fuel than the leisure sector so the incentive to instal additional white diesel fueling systems may not be great. I can see a situation where it may not be possible legally to use a diesel vessel without very significant inconvenience. Or, alternatively, commercial vessel users will be inconvenienced where a RDCO chooses to supply only white diesel from their current system.

The issue will be most acute where a diesel vessel is unable to fuel dockside and since many diesel vessels are considerably over the dimensions and weight to be transported to suppliers for fuel, their only reasonable alternative would be to organise a tanker to deliver fuel - if possible.

There is also the knock-on side effect for visitors to the UK and particularly Scotland and the north of England because of our remoteness. If you are a boating visitor to the UK and you can't reasonably collect fuel, your alternative is very likely not to come. So tourism will be hit also.

It is intended that the policing of these new rules will be aligned with that of policing road users.

With all the possible issues around the EU ruling plus the costs to make the infrastructure happen and the costs of policing it, it's difficult to believe that the government is caving in just because of the colour of the fuel. However, it's notable that in the consultation document it is suggested there will be no additional policing cost. Does this suggest that the policing will be done by the fuel suppliers perhaps?

If we leave the EU one may think that the issue will go away, well, maybe aye, maybe no. If Nicola Sturgeon gets her way she'll want us back into the EU...see where this is going? Someone should pass this by her too since a big push for Scottish income is the tourist market. Oops, better stop there or Poly will 'av me....
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Old 27 August 2019, 17:18   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TILLY View Post
We ARE being ripped off by our Government on prices for all our fuel.
Since it was an Eu deal, IF we leave, why not revert to what was the position before? Suggesting this would get a politician a large number of votes. Regarding the petrol users slagging the diesel users reminds me of Rifle shooters slagging Pistol shooters a number of years ago when the Govt. banned the Pistol shooters, not realising they are dividing to rule.


Actually fuel costs in the UK are similar if not lower than most of Europe. France is considerably more expensive, Portugal & Spain slightly cheaper. Germany, Austria about parity, Italy more expensive etc etc.
If you want to see a real rip off, try filling up in Norway, & they make the stuff.
As regards to “slagging” the diesel users, you must be reading a different thread to me. We haven’t even got to the banter stage yet, slagging off is waaay down the line
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Old 28 August 2019, 03:28   #10
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If you were designing a system from scratch would you not get everyone to have white, including the commercial guys and either:

- allow them to reclaim the road element from the gov? Like people do for VAT etc.

Or

- when the customer pays for it without the road element, the pump operator doses the fuel with a "shot" of red...? Either manually or even automatically from the pump? This has the advantage that if if install a separate heating tank I can fill it with red, but if I actually was transferring out of that tank to my propulsion tank I would risk being caught...

I know there are people who claim white has more ethanol and cr@p that rots rubber seals. I'm assuming that is not actually an issue and is internet b****s.
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