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Old 28 August 2019, 13:56   #21
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Is this a real problem for leisure users?

White in the local Shell garage is about £1.26 and red in Cowes £1.12, hardly a huge difference.

We managed to fuel up last week in Weymouth when the man with a bowser trailer turned up to fuel a gin palace. So a quick chat and we also took 40L at 75p litre for cash. He was worried about his bis, but for leisure users?

Pete
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Old 28 August 2019, 14:17   #22
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Is this a real problem for leisure users?



White in the local Shell garage is about £1.26 and red in Cowes £1.12, hardly a huge difference.



We managed to fuel up last week in Weymouth when the man with a bowser trailer turned up to fuel a gin palace. So a quick chat and we also took 40L at 75p litre for cash. He was worried about his bis, but for leisure users?



Pete


I hadnít realised the price difference was so low. I buy red off the local farmer for 60p/litre. Iíd assumed the diesel boys would be paying similar.
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Old 28 August 2019, 14:22   #23
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Hi Pete

You seem rather keen to get the best deal for yourself, going to negotiate to save about £10 so by implication you see it as a problem
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Old 28 August 2019, 14:36   #24
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Hi Pete

You seem rather keen to get the best deal for yourself, going to negotiate to save about £10 so by implication you see it as a problem
No, not true. We could have managed quite happily without the 40L but he was fuelling the motorboat moored in front so no real problem for him with the long hoses. If we had needed the diesel we would have probably paid full wack for the convenience. Whilst there is a diesel pontoon in Weymouth manning by the attendant is sporadic at best. In fact only saw him once in the week.

I get there may be a problem in places like Scottish isles. I like the idea that the petrol commercial users have of claiming back by filling in a SO50 form I think. Then supply everyone with white, so no problem with visitors to the UK from the EU or UK boats visiting the EU.

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Old 28 August 2019, 15:07   #25
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40litres - not a big deal. You can transport in cans if you need to. So garage white versus 60:40 (probay not actually legal currently on a lot of ribs) will not be a massive issue...

But that assumes you are using 40litres. If you are doing 150mile trips you might be using 150 - 200 litres... That's a lot of cans and £28 price difference every fill up will stack up... And I don't think the price on the west coast is so cheap for white road!

I
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Old 28 August 2019, 15:37   #26
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Is this a real problem for leisure users?
Pete, it's not the cost, it's the availability. If there is no white for sale dockside it will be illegal to go boating for a leisure user if they cannot source white fuel elsewhere. For small vessel local users there may not be too much inconvenience but for sizeable vessels there surely will be. Many diesel vessels will take 500 lts plus, some considerably more than that. That's a lot of journeys with a 5lt container which is the maximum at many garages.

You've not quite got your head around the problem for remote, or even just northern areas. For example, there is one marina in the whole of the Firth of Fourth, they supply to leisure and commercial customers, the sales to commercial far outweigh leisure, what's the insentive for them to invest in a white system too, not much. Let's presume the do, so if I'm going north I need to go 20miles west first to fuel up then the next marina is 140 miles north. It too supplies primarily commercial customers. If they choose not to go white, that's the end of the journey unless I go illegally. The next marina with fuel is another 120 miles with a similar sales base to the others. What's the odds there..who knows?

It could very easily be the end to legal boating for sizable power boats in more remote areas.

There's also a fair number of travellers from the Scandinavian countries make landfall on the east coast of Scotland, after 300 miles across the north sea they're going to need a fuel stop. No white! They need to buy illegally, that's gonna make them fully relaxed during their holliday in a foreign country...not. In the long term it will be discouraging to travellers so also work against the tourist trade.

There's lots of knock-on implications for both leisure and commercial fuel users. All just because of the colour of the diesel fuel. Is it only in the EU that such trivial stupidity is the norm? Grrr...
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Old 28 August 2019, 15:50   #27
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Is this a real problem for leisure users?

White in the local Shell garage is about £1.26 and red in Cowes £1.12, hardly a huge difference.

We managed to fuel up last week in Weymouth when the man with a bowser trailer turned up to fuel a gin palace. So a quick chat and we also took 40L at 75p litre for cash. He was worried about his bis, but for leisure users?

Pete
Not a particularly fair comparison Pete - a massive chain compared to a single independent outlet. The same deal explains how they can justify £1.45 a litre for petrol. Using the same rational, surely white on the pontoon is going to start costing a similar price to petrol (if not more??) - in which case you're looking at a significant increase. Maybe easy to swallow for small quantities, but when you're buying thousands of litres at a time thats going to hurt quite a bit!
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Old 28 August 2019, 16:50   #28
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Well, whether we like it or not, there are some big changes coming our way.

Sell big mobos and buy little humber 5.5m ribs will petrol outboards might be a good idea. Or, for Tim, moving to Scotland with a bowser and a landie could be an interesting bis opportunity.

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Old 28 August 2019, 17:08   #29
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buy little humber 5.5m ribs will petrol outboards might be a good idea.
While that will be a valid choice for some. For Scotland anyone wanting to make serious passage in a powerboat can't fuel up with white derv or normal unleaded at sufficiently common intervals to make serious passages. The choice of diesel in Scotland isn't purely about economy .. its about being the only thing available dockside at all.

This will affect RIBs but also MOBO owners. It also affects WAFIs... Some seem to use 20 litres a year and will cope just fine, others seem to carry 100L+ at a time and again will have issues transporting from a petrol station. And that even assumes there is a petrol station in a vaguely sensible location.

A bowser coming in, shared between multiple owners, is an option for a regular home port. But full of headaches. Not least of which may be harbour masters who want a ton of risk assessments, and needing multiple owners to all want fuel at the same time to make it worth while.

The only hope I can see would be if those 'yacht' venues that have steered away from fuel because they can't charge enough to cover the costs realise there is no competition and so do provide white.

No idea what the demand would be to know how likely it is to make business sense...
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Old 28 August 2019, 17:55   #30
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Pete, it's not the cost, it's the availability.
supply and demand though - currently zero demand. How long will it take to adjust is the issue? perhaps pete's business opportunity is not crazy...
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You've not quite got your head around the problem for remote, or even just northern areas. For example, there is one marina in the whole of the Firth of Fourth, they supply to leisure and commercial customers, the sales to commercial far outweigh leisure, what's the insentive for them to invest in a white system too, not much.
I don't know - they must sell loads to a small number of big users (who could actually get it anywhere a tanker can come alongside - so will be price sensitive). On the other hand by number of customers the yachties must be much higher (each buying much less), but are customers who expect a certain level of service and are paying handsomely for a marina with such comforts

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Let's presume the do, so if I'm going north I need to go 20miles west first to fuel up
don't you have to do that anyway? or fill her on the trailer
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then the next marina is 140 miles north. It too supplies primarily commercial customers. If they choose not to go white, that's the end of the journey unless I go illegally. The next marina with fuel is another 120 miles with a similar sales base to the others. What's the odds there..who knows?
it will be like petrol boats - you'll have to plan your trip, and think ahead.
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It could very easily be the end to legal boating for sizable power boats in more remote areas.
maybe - but how many leisure users with sizable power boats actually exist? I always assumed most big powerboats were commercial or pretending to the tax man to be commercial anyway...

I'm sure there is a way for you to keep using red if you code, and invoice yourself for each trip.

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There's also a fair number of travellers from the Scandinavian countries make landfall on the east coast of Scotland, after 300 miles across the north sea they're going to need a fuel stop. No white!
how do they get on at the moment? Presumably currently they fuel up when here, contaminate their tanks with red and risk going back to a country where red in a leisure boat = penalty. Might a mid term future where that problem is solved actually help?

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. All just because of the colour of the diesel fuel. Is it only in the EU that such trivial stupidity is the norm? Grrr...
fuel marking for duty is used all over the world. Customs officials anywhere in the world can be officious in my experience. We don't have any left so we have become complacent. If we end up with borders again, we'll probably outsource it to G4S / Capita etc, and make a total hash of it whilst causing huge inconvenience!

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I'm not so sure about the 'blind eye' thing. This ruling will be put into UK law and the consultation document makes it clear that it will be policed in a similar way and with the same penalties as the road fuel system.
so if I understand it, the reality of this is - a large percentage of intelligence led sampling, along with random stops in "hot spots", some random testing when other stuff is getting checked (I can't see a marine equivalent) and a tiny amount of truly random stops for truly random people. Where people will get stopped is in other countries who actively police their waters - currently some of those people are already facing problems.

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I hadnít realised the price difference was so low. I buy red off the local farmer for 60p/litre. Iíd assumed the diesel boys would be paying similar.
you forgot they are only claiming 40% of their fuel is burned for heating...

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I'd suspect if the whole farming and plant operating community including the travelling community had the ability to reclaim their duty on tractor or generator fuel then those tractors and generators may become a little inefficient as the fuel found its way into other vehicles.
you don't need to switch "off"-road vehicles to white - just all marine use... theres a series of hoops to jump through to be a commercial vessel which would make it much harder to abuse than vague road type use. I'm sure some dodgy fishermen would be running their landy on marine white and claiming it back. In rural parts, some are probably running it on red anyway!
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