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Old 28 August 2019, 05:08   #11
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Originally Posted by ShinyShoe View Post
If you were designing a system from scratch would you not get everyone to have white, including the commercial guys and either:

- allow them to reclaim the road element from the gov? Like people do for VAT etc.

Or

- when the customer pays for it without the road element, the pump operator doses the fuel with a "shot" of red...? Either manually or even automatically from the pump? This has the advantage that if if install a separate heating tank I can fill it with red, but if I actually was transferring out of that tank to my propulsion tank I would risk being caught...

I know there are people who claim white has more ethanol and cr@p that rots rubber seals. I'm assuming that is not actually an issue and is internet b****s.
Commercial operators of petrol craft can reclaim the duty paid on petrol therefore there is an acceptable method of everyone running on the same fuel & those entitled to the duty free fuel having access to it. The problem with using that system for diesel is the sheer volume of diesel used for none marine purposes. Charging the duty on all diesel and allowing those entitled to reclaim the duty would be a huge increase in financial turnover & presumably it would create more problems than it cures. Our government don't want to change anything as they know it will have a negative affect on the leisure industry & quite frankly I'm sure they have better things to do than chase leisure boaters for a fairly small amount of duty.
Lets hope this is one of the positive things that comes out of Brexit and the current system is retained.
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Old 28 August 2019, 05:50   #12
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I'm for the all white solution. I'm sure there can be a workable solution where taxes can be reclaimed as for petrol but combined with the policing of the supply for the large users. There is currently a bar at 2300ltr with adjusted rules for the big users, I'm sure with a bit of creativity a good, workable system can be devised.

It's fine saying that it's a not wanted system but it will be put into law if we don't break away from the EU soon.

The current ruling is just ridiculous and is an example where other EU countries (apparently our EU friends!) have brought a court action simply because of our fuel colour. If the colour is the issue, remove the colour, remove the issue.
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Old 28 August 2019, 05:59   #13
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I'm for the all white solution. I'm sure there can be a workable solution where taxes can be reclaimed as for petrol but combined with the policing of the supply for the large users. There is currently a bar at 2300ltr with adjusted rules for the big users, I'm sure with a bit of creativity a good, workable system can be devised.

It's fine saying that it's a not wanted system but it will be put into law if we don't break away from the EU soon.

The current ruling is just ridiculous and is an example where other EU countries (apparently our EU friends!) have brought a court action simply because of our fuel colour. If the colour is the issue, remove the colour, remove the issue.
If you read the consultation document it doesn't even consider a white only policy id imagine it would be far too easy to abuse.
The present proposal is to make leisure boaters use white only the question is will that have a negative affect on leisure boating and the answer has to be yes of course it will what our government does to reduce that effect remains to be seen. I suspect some interim scheme will be implemented in the short term but longer term who knows?
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Old 28 August 2019, 06:13   #14
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Iíve not read the consultation doc, but 2 salient points spring to mind.

1,Where does the onus on deciding who buys what lay? I.e is it the pump attendants responsibility to decide who can buy red or not? Or is it the purchaser?I can go down to my local garage with jerry cans & fill up with red diesel no questions asked. The garage doesnít care what I do with it.

2, how is any eventual scheme going to be enforced & what penalties will be applied for infringement? Personally I think it will quietly die a death after the initial furore.
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Old 28 August 2019, 06:25   #15
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Hopefully it won’t be an issue after the 31st October. If it is, welcome to our (outboard) world


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Old 28 August 2019, 06:36   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikey Dave View Post
Iíve not read the consultation doc, but 2 salient points spring to mind.

1,Where does the onus on deciding who buys what lay? I.e is it the pump attendants responsibility to decide who can buy red or not? Or is it the purchaser?I can go down to my local garage with jerry cans & fill up with red diesel no questions asked. The garage doesnít care what I do with it.

2, how is any eventual scheme going to be enforced & what penalties will be applied for infringement? Personally I think it will quietly die a death after the initial furore.
Yes I think you could be correct I've not heard of anyone being checked for having paid the duty on their fuel or not
It will cost the govt more to police than they stand to make so I'd imagine it will be a case of turning an official blind eye
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Old 28 August 2019, 07:19   #17
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......so I'd imagine it will be a case of turning an official blind eye


A bit like when you go to a French supermarket & see the cooked meat next to the raw chicken then
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Old 28 August 2019, 07:30   #18
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I have read the consultation document and I intend to respond to it. There are specific questions for both the commercial and leisure sectors where there is a request for responses.

Pikey, currently the onus is on the buyer/supplier. If commercial diesel is purchased the seller has to provide the buyer with a declaration which has to be signed and often also has the address of the buyer included.

I'm not so sure about the 'blind eye' thing. This ruling will be put into UK law and the consultation document makes it clear that it will be policed in a similar way and with the same penalties as the road fuel system.

The consultation document also covered the use of a commercial vessel for private use. I suspect this is quite common but in this case the requirement is to drain and flush the fuel tank before refilling with white for the private use. Well, that's likely to happen before you take the kids for a bit off fishing on a Sunday...not!

The proposed system is going to encourage law breaking if white diesel is not readily available so in that sense it isn't a good solution.

I'm still for all white, it may also improve the illegal use of red on the road since all diesel will be fully taxed at source.
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Old 28 August 2019, 08:32   #19
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I have read the consultation document and I intend to respond to it. There are specific questions for both the commercial and leisure sectors where there is a request for responses.

Pikey, currently the onus is on the buyer/supplier. If commercial diesel is purchased the seller has to provide the buyer with a declaration which has to be signed and often also has the address of the buyer included.

I'm not so sure about the 'blind eye' thing. This ruling will be put into UK law and the consultation document makes it clear that it will be policed in a similar way and with the same penalties as the road fuel system.

The consultation document also covered the use of a commercial vessel for private use. I suspect this is quite common but in this case the requirement is to drain and flush the fuel tank before refilling with white for the private use. Well, that's likely to happen before you take the kids for a bit off fishing on a Sunday...not!

The proposed system is going to encourage law breaking if white diesel is not readily available so in that sense it isn't a good solution.

I'm still for all white, it may also improve the illegal use of red on the road since all diesel will be fully taxed at source.
I'd suspect if the whole farming and plant operating community including the travelling community had the ability to reclaim their duty on tractor or generator fuel then those tractors and generators may become a little inefficient as the fuel found its way into other vehicles.
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Old 28 August 2019, 08:52   #20
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I'd suspect if the whole farming and plant operating community including the travelling community had the ability to reclaim their duty on tractor or generator fuel then those tractors and generators may become a little inefficient as the fuel found its way into other vehicles.
Perhaps, but they're not paying tax at source presently so what would be different?At the moment all they need to do is pour it into their vehicle tanks. If the alternative is to falsify tax returns and if the checking was robust there may be some reluctance to do that. The travelling community is unlikely to be an issue where commercial tax returns are concerned, I would have thought.
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