Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 
Old 28 May 2012, 06:45   #21
Member
 
Country: Other
Town: Lisbon
Boat name: No Limit
Make: Hydrosport
Length: 7m +
Engine: 150
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by NSS View Post
They'd do well to look at the likes of VAG Group, where a 'family' of brands aimed at different aspirational markets and different price points share not just technology/development costs but use 80% or more of the same parts. The Audi A1/VW Polo/SEAT Ibiza/Skoda Fabia are virtually the same cars under the skin, and other manufacturers share, for example, engines.

Without such collaborations, and the economics of scale that they bring, the price of your Ford Fiesta's and Vauxhall Astra's would be double what they are now. If the marine industry were to do likewise, and build more 'Ford Focus' rather than everyone wanting to be a Landrover or Ferrari equivalent, then boating would be more accessible and we wouldn't have to pay more for a basic 5m RIB with engine than you'd pay for the BMW 3-series.

That, or we wait until the Chinese wipe the floor of course.
Actually NSS, we basically already use the same parts. Same material for tubes, same fibreglass, same resin, same acessories - we just shape them diferently and use different quantities of stuff. Just like they do with cars.

Problem is, in a small company like Hydrosport, we have each year 50 customers - ordering 50 different boats. If we ever are stupid enough to produce a boat for stock, we will not be able to sell it. Because it is always the wrong colour, and has the wrong console and the wrong seats.

People do not come to a Ford dealer and ask if they can make a Focus with slightly bigger doors or smaller windows. But they come to us and ask for a console that is 1/2 inch lower. Or wider. Or perhaps with a different grab handle. Or different console back inset. Not to speak of the tubes, I do not think we have made 2 tubes that are exactly the same the last 2 years.

As long as it is like this, then we should not be too worried about the chinese. Which is not the same thing as ignoring them, because if we start to ignore them, then it will not be long before they take over.

As for a 5m rib being more expensive than a BMW 3-series, the problem is always the engine. As long as a 90hp 4 stroke outboard costs more than a car (ex taxes) equipped with the same engine block, it will be difficult to do something about that. Perhaps with chinese engines? :-)

Have fun!
Eddy
__________________

__________________
Eddy Johansen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 May 2012, 06:52   #22
NSS
RIBnet supporter
 
NSS's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Southampton
Boat name: cariboo too
Make: WB Generation 430
Length: 4m +
Engine: Honda BF50
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by clydeoutboards View Post
Hi NSS

I am not convinced that comparing ribs to cars is a good one due to the difference in the number of cars sold and ribs sold.

Less choice means higher prices which is also why we have the monopolies commission ( now Competition Commission) to stop such practice.

Dave
To a degree, I agree with you Dave, but the principles are much the same. Sure there are more cars sold, but you cannot compare the complexity, equipment levels, etc of a modern car to a RIB. At the end of the day, a RIB is a GRP tub with an inflatable collar, an engine, a steering console, a couple of seats and a few mechanical/electronic devices. If it wasn't a largely 'cottage' industry where dozens (if not hundreds) of well-intentioned enthusiasts try to make a living by building what are in effect one-offs, then production costs would tumble. Prices are often justified by the fact that designing a new boat, and making a plug and moulds is so expensive that the manufacturer has to recoup that cost by charging a higher price than the build alone might justify. If more manufacturers collaborated at this stage, sharing the design and tooling costs at least, then that cost would be amortised over a larger production run. If they one manufacturer then wants to fit 'deckchair' seating and teak decking, and another wants to fit dive bottle stowages and hard-core shock-mitigating seats, that's up to them.

I just thought this thread was symptomatic of how the industry is in danger of committing suicide. It just makes no business sense whatsoever (IMHO anyway).
__________________
NSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 May 2012, 07:05   #23
RIBnet admin team
 
willk's Avatar
 
Country: Ireland
Make: Redbay Boats
Length: 9m +
Engine: 370hp
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 12,924
RIBase
Quote:
Originally Posted by NSS View Post
The marine industry needs, in my opinion, to wake up and smell the coffee - before it is too late!
Comparing cars and boats, especially RIBS, is not reasonable in terms of mass production. Boats have a much smaller demand in the general population. There are quite a number of mass produced RIBS around, some hailing from Europe, some from locations where wages are lower. They're generally not held in high regard on here - probably as this is a fairly "specialist" forum. One respected RIB maker on here is quickly and quietly banging out cookie cutter hard boats in Europe for one of the multinationals, but takes a different approach to RIBS.
Bear in mind too that boats from different manufacturers already have much commonality - engines, electronics, fittings etc. The actual hulls account for less than half the end cost. I suspect that labour accounts for the biggest proportion of hull build, especially with RIBS, where the collars are hand made. I know that boat builders here are very keen to streamline build techniques to reduce labour costs and prefer engines with simple (quick) install procedures. There is only so much that we can do about labour costs in Europe. In the Far East, where anything goes, there's more wriggle room. I don't want a GRP "tub" built in a bathroom ware factory in China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NSS View Post
That, or we wait until the Chinese wipe the floor of course.
Careful - that's a slippery slope
__________________
willk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28 May 2012, 09:34   #24
Administrator
 
John Kennett's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Brighton
Length: 3m +
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 6,829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy Johansen
People do not come to a Ford dealer and ask if they can make a Focus with slightly bigger doors or smaller windows. But they come to us and ask for a console that is 1/2 inch lower. Or wider. Or perhaps with a different grab handle. Or different console back inset. Not to speak of the tubes, I do not think we have made 2 tubes that are exactly the same the last 2 years.
You don't have to indulge them though, you choose to. That's fine, but don't make the mistake of thinking it's the only way!

Ribeye seem to be doing very well selling a limited range of mass produced RIBs, so it's definitely possible.
__________________
John Kennett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 May 2012, 10:07   #25
Member
 
Country: Other
Town: Lisbon
Boat name: Zenrelax
Make: Hydrosport Rib 646
Length: 6m +
Engine: Honda 150hp
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kennett View Post
You don't have to indulge them though, you choose to. That's fine, but don't make the mistake of thinking it's the only way!

Ribeye seem to be doing very well selling a limited range of mass produced RIBs, so it's definitely possible.
Problem are, in car mass production is 10 000+ cars. In boats is not possible. Even Bayliner do not make 1 000 boat/year of their most sold model any more.

In 2006-2007 we tried produce a 4,7m with 50hp Honda 4 stroke and trailer sold for 9999 euros - loosing 1000 euros on each boat. We sold 20 units.

People do not want cheap boats, people want tailor made boats.
__________________
CSoares is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 May 2012, 10:14   #26
Member
 
Country: Other
Town: Lisbon
Boat name: Zenrelax
Make: Hydrosport Rib 646
Length: 6m +
Engine: Honda 150hp
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by NSS View Post
but you cannot compare the complexity, equipment levels, etc of a modern car to a RIB. At the end of the day, a RIB is a GRP tub with an inflatable collar, an engine, a steering console, a couple of seats and a few mechanical/electronic devices.

If more manufacturers collaborated at this stage, sharing the design and tooling costs at least, then that cost would be amortised over a larger production run.

Correct. A RIB is more complex to a car. A car is all standard. A RIB is different one to the other.

We cannot even imagine to think we can collaborate with other companies. Just see the accusations from Andy and Nico, I think is a english expression: much adoo about nothing. There is absolutely no base, but still other companies accuse of doing copy.
__________________
CSoares is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 May 2012, 13:16   #27
NSS
RIBnet supporter
 
NSS's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Southampton
Boat name: cariboo too
Make: WB Generation 430
Length: 4m +
Engine: Honda BF50
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy Johansen View Post
Actually NSS, we basically already use the same parts. Same material for tubes, same fibreglass, same resin, same acessories - we just shape them diferently and use different quantities of stuff. Just like they do with cars.

Problem is, in a small company like Hydrosport, we have each year 50 customers - ordering 50 different boats. If we ever are stupid enough to produce a boat for stock, we will not be able to sell it. Because it is always the wrong colour, and has the wrong console and the wrong seats.

People do not come to a Ford dealer and ask if they can make a Focus with slightly bigger doors or smaller windows. But they come to us and ask for a console that is 1/2 inch lower. Or wider. Or perhaps with a different grab handle. Or different console back inset. Not to speak of the tubes, I do not think we have made 2 tubes that are exactly the same the last 2 years.

As long as it is like this, then we should not be too worried about the chinese. Which is not the same thing as ignoring them, because if we start to ignore them, then it will not be long before they take over.

As for a 5m rib being more expensive than a BMW 3-series, the problem is always the engine. As long as a 90hp 4 stroke outboard costs more than a car (ex taxes) equipped with the same engine block, it will be difficult to do something about that. Perhaps with chinese engines? :-)

Have fun!
Eddy
Hi Eddy, don't get me wrong, my comments weren't directed at you personally, nor anyone else in particular in the industry. I just think there's a big shock looming around the corner for those who do not recognise the threat and plan for it.

A few points specific to your reply.

You are not using the same parts - "Same material for tubes, same fibreglass, same resin" - you are using the same raw materials, just as a car manufacturer will use the same steel, foam, glass, etc as another. The difference is, taking my example of the VAG models, they share the same platform plus many other parts. Therefore, the development, tooling and production costs are spread across many models badged under a variety of brands.

As for the bespoke tubes, console, etc, as John said, you don't have to indulge the customer. Ford offer a standard range of body colours or interior trim, much like all the mass producers of cars. If you want metallic paint, fatter alloy wheels, or leather seats, they charge you extra.

But it's much more than that. CSoares mentioned Bayliner, but how many other boat builders offer very similar products? My guess is that there are many many more boat manufacturers than there are car manufacturers, and they're all chasing what (in volume) is a far smaller market. That's a recipe for disaster, and it's hardly surprising that so many of the smaller ones go bust. Only so many people can afford, or are willing to spend Ferrari money.

As I see it, boat manufacturers need to do the same, and I take the point, as John again says, that Ribeye seem to be doing pretty well by doing so - though I'd contend that event their boats are hugely more expensive than they could/should be were the industry to learn to work totgether more.

For my own part, I fitted out my own Avon Rover 3.4 RIB and, as a consequence, it is a unique (or at least very unusual) configuration. That's not because I wasn't prepared to compromise on what I wanted, it was simply because I wasn't prepared to spend almost 11,000 on something I won't use more than 30 or 40 hours a year. That is the barrier that the industry has to overcome if it is to tempt more like me to 'stick a toe in the water'.

I agree that engine prices are a big factor, but again cannot understand why they are so expensive. My guess is that the manufacturers/dealers are making a killing, and they too will be riding for a fall when Chinese/Asian manufacturers overcome the stigma that many will attach to their products (and believe me they will overcome it, just as Nissan, Toyota, Mazda et all did before them).
__________________
NSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 May 2012, 13:34   #28
NSS
RIBnet supporter
 
NSS's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Southampton
Boat name: cariboo too
Make: WB Generation 430
Length: 4m +
Engine: Honda BF50
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSoares View Post
Correct. A RIB is more complex to a car. A car is all standard. A RIB is different one to the other.
The only way a RIB can be more complex than a car is because you choose to make it so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSoares View Post
We cannot even imagine to think we can collaborate with other companies.
Then the future of your business, and those who are similarly insular in their outlook, is in my opinion very bleak.
__________________
NSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 May 2012, 13:46   #29
NSS
RIBnet supporter
 
NSS's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Southampton
Boat name: cariboo too
Make: WB Generation 430
Length: 4m +
Engine: Honda BF50
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSoares View Post
Problem are, in car mass production is 10 000+ cars. In boats is not possible. Even Bayliner do not make 1 000 boat/year of their most sold model any more.
As I said in my reply to Eddy, and so do dozens of other hard boat builders. If they collaborated, at least on hull design/moulding, then the numbers would be much greater and the boats would be cheaper to produce.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSoares View Post
In 2006-2007 we tried produce a 4,7m with 50hp Honda 4 stroke and trailer sold for 9999 euros - loosing 1000 euros on each boat. We sold 20 units.

People do not want cheap boats, people want tailor made boats.
Perhaps if you'd co-operated with someone who laready builds a similar size hull, or built one under licence instead of developing your own, the 20 you sold would have made you a profit.

How can you possibly say that people don't want cheap boats? That's like saying, "no I don't want to pay 15,000 for that car, I want to give you 20,000".

The perception is that boating is for the wealthy, so they'll happily pay over the odds to keep the dregs of society away from their exclusive club. That's the attitude that will be the ruin of the industry.
__________________
NSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28 May 2012, 14:03   #30
NSS
RIBnet supporter
 
NSS's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Southampton
Boat name: cariboo too
Make: WB Generation 430
Length: 4m +
Engine: Honda BF50
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by willk View Post
There are quite a number of mass produced RIBS around, some hailing from Europe, some from locations where wages are lower. They're generally not held in high regard on here - probably as this is a fairly "specialist" forum.
Well let's hope your 'specialist' manufacturers are still there to supply the demand in a few years time when the quality of those mass-produced has overtaken (and undercut) them.

Incidentally, where exactly does it say that this is a fairly specialist forum? It's billed as "The Number 1 RIB Website" but it seems that the opinions of 'leisure' users like myself are written off as being irrelevant. We may not spend the same amount of time on the water, or go out in all weathers, but we still pay launch fees, buy chandlery, take training courses, pay RNLI subscriptions, etc, helping to keep such costs down to a ridiculous level (rather than an astronomical one) for you hard-core types :-)
__________________
NSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:30.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.