Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 
Old 20 May 2013, 04:28   #91
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Length: 3m +
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,250
I think those of you in the 'it aint broke' camp are missing that errors happen because of intended and unintended actions.

They also happen because of lack of knowledge / education. Put that together an you get 4 sources of "error" which in the case of KCs we could describe as:

1. (Intentional System Failure) KC Used Correctly, but through manufacturer design was expected not to work. The only thing I can think of would be a crew member going overboard. As stated by the 'it aint broke' camp the KC works. Education about any known limitations would help.

2. (Unintentional System Failure) KC Used Correctly, but through desugn fault didn't do the job. This would be the case of someone going OB with the KC and the switch failing to switch the engine off. I'm sure there are cases where this happens, but they are fortunately rare and I suspect behind the scenes manufacturers have improved the switches since they first hit the market. I think a number of us have concerns that a more techy solution might increase the incidence of this. Education to test could reduce this. Education about hollow red plastic could reduce this.

3. (Intentional User Error) KC not used as intended - intentionally. The group of users who repeatedly refuse to wear a KC. Education may help, but people speed in cards and people still speed in cars after going on speed awareness courses (but a few will modift behaviour). Legislation may help but people still speed in cars (but less than if it wasnt illegal I guess). Design changes could help where people claim they "can't" use the KC because its so badly designed its impractical for them. I'm sure there are people who purposefully disable the seatbelt on sensor so they can drive without wearing it and without the anoying bleep. These are intentional errors. Short of telling people why thats a bad idea or punishing them for doing it (legislation) there isn't much you can do.

4. (Unintentional User Error). The user simply forgets to put the KC on. Yes education may help to raise it in their mind, but I think you can argue that there is a system failure that lets the user forget. I think the anolgy here is the bleep in the seatbelt when you haven't plugged in. I'm not convinced education will make much impact and legislation almost certainly none.

So for the it aint broke camp... you need to remember that while the tech works when used as intended people may either consciously or unconsciouly fail to use the tech in which case there is an arguement that the tech could be better designed.

That said... ...anyone who thinks a 1 minute switch is a good idea needs to look at those because it fails: 1 - it has bigger limitations (1 minute at 30kts = 0.5 kts of swimming back to your boat), 2 - the switch will be prone to faults as all are (switch jams on?), 3 - people will disconnect it because it stops them driving the boat how they want to and they are quite happy with the standard KC, 4 - holding the button down doesn't actually test if the KC is attached to person. If you've forgotten but as institutionalised to hold the button down or press it every time it bleeps or whatever you'll still do it and I doubt every time you do it you'll look at the KC...
__________________

__________________
ShinyShoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20 May 2013, 04:49   #92
RIBnet admin team
 
Nos4r2's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: The wilds of Wiltshire
Boat name: WhiteNoise/Dominator
Make: Ballistic 7.8/SR5.4
Length: 7m +
Engine: Opti 225/Yam 85
MMSI: 235090687/235055163
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,645
RIBase
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinyShoe View Post
there is an arguement that the tech could be better designed.
There's always the possibility that any tech could be better designed. However, 'better' doesn't equal more complicated, harder to use or with added bloatware.
__________________
Need spares,consoles,consumables,hire,training or even a new boat?

Please click HERE and HERE and support our Trade Members.

Join up as a Trade member or Supporter HERE
Nos4r2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20 May 2013, 05:21   #93
NSS
RIBnet supporter
 
NSS's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Southampton
Boat name: cariboo too
Make: WB Generation 430
Length: 4m +
Engine: Honda BF50
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nos4r2 View Post
There may well be a practical additional system that has yet to be designed, however it'd have to be something that requires no input from the helmsman.
Even a KC needs input from the helmsman - if only to remember to attach it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nos4r2 View Post
Yes,that's usually when my spine attempts to exit through the top of my head.
Rally drivers have a co-driver.
F1 drivers don't

As I said originally, was happy to be shot down over my original idea (and no I wasn't talking about a swith that had to be pressed on the console every minute), but I maintain that there must be a way of introducing a more reliable failsafe than that which currently exists.
__________________
NSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20 May 2013, 05:36   #94
RIBnet admin team
 
Nos4r2's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: The wilds of Wiltshire
Boat name: WhiteNoise/Dominator
Make: Ballistic 7.8/SR5.4
Length: 7m +
Engine: Opti 225/Yam 85
MMSI: 235090687/235055163
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,645
RIBase
Quote:
Originally Posted by NSS View Post


F1 drivers don't
F1 drivers have smooth track and a datalink

Are you going to suggest land based telemetry and a device to pour oil on the water ahead of the boat next?
__________________
Need spares,consoles,consumables,hire,training or even a new boat?

Please click HERE and HERE and support our Trade Members.

Join up as a Trade member or Supporter HERE
Nos4r2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20 May 2013, 06:00   #95
NSS
RIBnet supporter
 
NSS's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Southampton
Boat name: cariboo too
Make: WB Generation 430
Length: 4m +
Engine: Honda BF50
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nos4r2 View Post
.... and a device to pour oil on the water ahead of the boat next?
Great idea. Just off to buy some shares in Shell and BP
__________________
NSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20 May 2013, 06:21   #96
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Winchester
Boat name: Raven
Make: Westerly 33/Avon 310
Length: 5m +
Engine: Mercedes 42 Toh9.8
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nos4r2 View Post
There is no such thing as idiot proof. Make it idiot proof, and someone will breed a better idiot.

It's been proved time and time again.
+1
__________________
Ribtecer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20 May 2013, 07:16   #97
RIBnet admin team
 
willk's Avatar
 
Country: Ireland
Make: Redbay Boats
Length: 9m +
Engine: 370hp
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 12,924
RIBase
Reading this thread, I can't help but think that some of the killcord "improvements" are being suggested by individuals who are, shall we say, exposed to that particular risk for, um, very limited periods annually...

__________________
willk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20 May 2013, 07:41   #98
NSS
RIBnet supporter
 
NSS's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Southampton
Boat name: cariboo too
Make: WB Generation 430
Length: 4m +
Engine: Honda BF50
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by willk View Post
Reading this thread, I can't help but think that some of the killcord "improvements" are being suggested by individuals who are, shall we say, exposed to that particular risk for, um, very limited periods annually...

Yep, and I definitely fall into that category. As such, my lack of experience probably means that I'm at greater risk of getting into a situation such as that which happened at Padstow, though that is probably mitigated by the fact that I'm less likely to be afloat in poor weather conditions, and less liable to being blasť about safety precautions.

Just because someone isn't a hardenned all-weather ribber, doesn't mean that they're not entitled to put forward a viewpoint or suggestion, does it?

In my experience, unrelated to boating of course, some of the best solutions often evolve from what at first seems to be a crap idea. If you discourage people from putting forward ideas then you suppress that possibility.
__________________
NSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20 May 2013, 08:13   #99
RIBnet admin team
 
willk's Avatar
 
Country: Ireland
Make: Redbay Boats
Length: 9m +
Engine: 370hp
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 12,924
RIBase
Quote:
Originally Posted by NSS View Post
Just because someone isn't a hardenned all-weather ribber, doesn't mean that they're not entitled to put forward a viewpoint or suggestion, does it?

In my experience, unrelated to boating of course, some of the best solutions often evolve from what at first seems to be a crap idea. If you discourage people from putting forward ideas then you suppress that possibility.
There appears to be no shortage of space dedicated in this thread to bloody stupid Heath Robinson devices that are no replacement for a piece of stout cord, so I just thought I'd exercise my own right of reply. I can think of no reason to introduce complex failsafe systems into an already expensive boat. Frankly, if people can't manage to clip on a killcord, maybe they should investigate gardening - although it has it's own hazards if the statistics can be believed.

On your other point, I don't think rough weather is a major factor in propstrike incidents - on the contrary, if my memory serves me, they mostly appear to occur close to shore in calm water...
__________________
willk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20 May 2013, 08:33   #100
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Mighty Penryn
Boat name: Little Joe.
Make: Avon Searider
Length: 4m +
Engine: Honda BF50
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,841
Quote:
Originally Posted by willk View Post
There appears to be no shortage of space dedicated in this thread to bloody stupid Heath Robinson devices that are no replacement for a piece of stout cord....
Agreed. F'kin daft innit?
__________________

__________________
Mollers is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
aint broke dont fix it, autotether, coastkey, deranged, improved, keyfob, kill cord, killcord, lanyard, mob, ramblings, rfid, tag, unrealistic, wireless

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.