Flare training??? - Page 2

ashbypower · 15 August 2014, 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerny

Did they ever find that big passenger plane... you know that malaysian one ???

Funny you mention that, I thought the same but kept it maritime !!!
NO they didn't and that's after a multimillion £ search ..

MustRib · 15 August 2014, 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerny

Did they ever find that big passenger plane... you know that malaysian one ???

nope - but then again you have to want to be found.

the DASS system when it comes online will be capable of way much more than the current Sat system,
it would be possible to acivate a new generation beacon
remotely to locate a missing plane or boat.
Return messaging is possible, because the 60 bit limit of the current system will not apply.
However, the constraints on DASS - certainly on launch, will be those placed on it by each countries authorities.
New generations will be Return link capable with DASS.
When a new distress event is created, it will be sent to the French Space Agency in Toulouse,
the Return Link provider, and they will then send the acknowledgement of receipt to the satellite
– which will be broadcast through the GPS signal – the Gallileo satellite,
not Copsas Sarsat anymore, the navigation signal itself will contain a specific message dedicated to your beacon,
that will let you know that they have now received a distress alert from your beacon.
You will not have any information about the Local Rescue co-ordination centre being active and dispatching rescue resources, because authorities are afraid of liability.

"Mmm all so well and good relying on the electronic stuff. I Know 4 people who were NEVER rescued even though they had the electronic Gizmo's !!"

Are you referring to the Cheeky Rafiki crew?
Assuming you are, rescues are only possible when assets can reach you to perform that rescue,
and in the context of this post, flares would not have helped them.
If anything, it illustrates the need for full exploitation of the DASS system and Return Link Capability.
An emergency is still an emergency, but information is key. The more you can give a Rescue centre the better.

If your not referring to the above, then I would like to know more about the incident(s) your referring to.

ashbypower · 15 August 2014, 20:01

Yes Cheeki Rafiki vessels were in the area. However I will NOT be drawn into any discussion as I Knew 2 of the lads quite well...

kerny · 15 August 2014, 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by MustRib

nope - but then again you have to want to be found.

Fair point

MustRib · 15 August 2014, 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashbypower

Yes Cheeki Rafiki vessels were in the area. However I will NOT be drawn into any discussion as I Knew 2 of the lads quite well...

Fair enough Brian, and obviously not intending to upset anyone on my part,
the MAIB is investigating and hopefully in due course we will get to
read about the facts.
You may gather that I am very interested in PLB technology,
and have investigated the new developments in that field.
Its perhaps wrong to reference how capable the new technology will be with past incidents,
but I do sense that governments and authorities are going to
wimp out on fully exploiting its potential for fear of litigation,
and that would be shameful.

Pikey Dave · 15 August 2014, 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashbypower

Mmm all so well and good relying on the electronic stuff. I Know 4 people who were NEVER rescued even though they had the electronic Gizmo's !!

Did they have flares?

ShinyShoe · 15 August 2014, 20:20

Yip - he's referring to Chekki and it was coded so they did...

Pikey Dave · 15 August 2014, 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashbypower

However I will NOT be drawn into any discussion as I Knew 2 of the lads quite well...

Hang on, you introduced the subject

Pikey Dave · 15 August 2014, 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

Yip - he's referring to Chekki and it was coded so they did...

Didn't do much good though

so in the context of this discussion, a bit of a red herring

HDAV · 15 August 2014, 20:39

SO simple answer is you don't really get the chance to do flare training........

What about commercial coded operators? In my industry you cant do a darn thing without a 3 day course in not falling over....

hmmm Flares; requirements and use. | Cruising | RYA

Quote:

Modern technology
Clearly there are those who will swear by the carriage of flares for use in distress and we fully respect that.
However, modern technology such as EPIRB, PLB and VHF DSC provides a more reliable option for distress alerting than flares, and presuming such technology is carried aboard a pleasure craft, the owner may now wish to consider whether there is a need to carry, flares, principally rocket flares, for alerting.
We make it quite clear that EVDS are not to be considered as an alternative for distress alerting.

Pikey Dave · 15 August 2014, 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDAV

hmmm Flares; requirements and use. | Cruising | RYA

No further questions your honour, case rests

SPR · 15 August 2014, 20:54

I had a call this week from potential customer - wanting to buy a rescue laser.

I asked him if he had a H/h radio or PLB - he said no. I then told him in his area of operation he would be better buying a radio or DSC h/h radio.

Since this would get home the help better than buying rescue laser flare alone .

Rescue Laser Flare is designed to guide your rescuer to you location after alerting by another means.

It can be used for finding retro reflective tape / markings.

There no golden rescue kit , you build up your own rescue kit to meet your own environment and type of boating.

I believe some Sea Survival Courses still do live flare demos - few of trade members in your area should be able to tell you.

regards

S.

www.firstaidatsea.co.uk
www.SPRmarine.co.uk

ShinyShoe · 15 August 2014, 20:58

Yeh so split your flares into to groups. In theory, at least, rockets are for declaring distress and handheld/floating are for attracting attention/positioning.

A rocket burns for 40seconds. And most coastal packs have 2. So you pop off a flare and have to hope that someone is looking in the right direction in a period of 120seconds. They recognise what it means and know what to do when they see it. Then because it has a range of 20miles you have a search zone of something like 300sq miles!

Or you can use an EPIRB / PLB / DSC to give a position, maybe even know help is on its way...

Now your help is approaching...

there are 100 boats near by and you need to tell them which AWB you are. Smoke by day or Red HH by night.

But to be fair with 100 boats near by your smoke or RED HH would have worked. I suspect smoke is rarely needed if you are the only boat for miles and original pos was correct. Red HH at night might make more of a difference,,,

So the LED Laser Flares are to replace the Red HH. No experience of either but I think the Odeo would be an option for signalling distress to nearby craft plus locating, especially at night. The Gretland is great for locating, but maybe not so obvious as a signal of distress. BUT I think is strong enough to position by day...

So you get the following:

ROCKET - replace with DSC. EPIRB, PLB (?Mobile Phone)

SMOKE - replace with Gretland? But is probably the safest of the smokes...

RED HH - replace with Odeo or Gretland. If you only ever carried Red HH - possibly the Odeo...

SPR · 15 August 2014, 21:14

just to be clear - 0DEO no longer uses Lasers - it's now an LED strobe...and is on MK3 after 3/4 years on market.

MK1 & MK2 were rotating lasers.

Greatland Rescue Flares have been on Market since 2001 ! I been reselling them since 2007 !

I also carry Fenix LED torch with me IP8 rated and has SOS mode, and I have variety of Strobes including Lifejacket Light - these all good for under 3nM signalling.

RLF has greater distances see report from

http://www.sprmarine.co.uk/content/u...er-flares.html

S.

Regards

S.

www.firstaidatsea.co.uk
www.SPRmarine.co.uk

gtb · 15 August 2014, 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

ROCKET - replace with DSC. EPIRB, PLB (?Mobile Phone)

Not sure if you're suggesting DSC and EPIRB/PLB, but worth noting that a rocket flare is likely visible up to 25nm by night, whereas a handled 5w VHF would likely only be good to around 5nm.

For long range alert you would, therefore, replace ROCKET with a 406Mhz beacon.

ShinyShoe · 15 August 2014, 21:54

25W DSC will cover 30NM

If you are never more than 5NM from a shore aerial thats all you need... Will be two way. redundancy is good though as MustRIB has shown us last year.

If not in company etc a PLB + DSC would be my preference, probably 25W DSC with 6W Handheld (+/- dsc).

willk · 16 August 2014, 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

Now your help is approaching...

there are 100 boats near by and you need to tell them which AWB you are. Smoke by day or Red HH by night.

Not a million moons ago, I was fortunate enough to be offered yet another "familiarisation flight" on a SAR helo. During the course of the flight the helo was tasked to a sinking cruiser on a large lake. Unable to get shod of us civilians, the skipper kept us aboard as spotters. When we arrived overhead, there were a myriad of All White Boats on the bay in question and damned if we could spot the sinking vessel. Being a lake-boat, they had fkk all notion of how to run an emergency and so it fell to the RNLI to search the bay for them. A smoke would have resolved the situation in five seconds. I quite like flares, I've popped quite a number of them over the years and they're wile craic hi!

willk · 16 August 2014, 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

If not in company etc a PLB + DSC would be my preference, probably 25W DSC with 6W Handheld (+/- dsc).

I resemble that remark!

Poly · 16 August 2014, 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by willk

Not a million moons ago, I was fortunate enough to be offered yet another "familiarisation flight" on a SAR helo.

Was that like mustribs one or did you say you were thinking of buying one like you do to redbay ;-)

Barrowboy · 16 August 2014, 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by willk

When we arrived overhead, there were a myriad of All White Boats on the bay in question and damned if we could spot the sinking vessel. Being a lake-boat, they had fkk all notion of how to run an emergency and so it fell to the RNLI to search the bay for them. A smoke would have resolved the situation in five seconds.

I'd love to have witnessed what would have happened next on board your 'copter after they'd fired off a parachute flare in your direction, rather than a smoke one