e petition for lifejackets

[Starovich]

Poly, do you wear a life jacket?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Starovich

They manage to enforce marine laws it in the US, and DUI in a boat affects you car driving licence too. (at least in NY)

Because they have a large Coastguard with enforcement powers, boats, personnel and other such things that cost huge amounts to the tax payer. As a result they also have boat registration in most (all?) states etc with fees / taxes as appropriate.

Is there any evidence that despite their 'greater enforcement' that fatality rates are lower?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Starovich

Poly, do you wear a life jacket?

Not when I'm cycling or walking!

I wear a PFD or Lifejacket when on my 'RIB', when sailing dinghies, when kayaking/canoeing. I didn't when windsurfing this summer but I was mostly in my depth.

If your next question is do I think people should normally wear a lifejacket / pfd when ribbing? Then the answer is also yes. But if your question is do I think making it mandatory would improve safety / significant reduce fatalities? The answer in no.

[Starovich]

Originally Posted by Poly

Because they have a large Coastguard with enforcement powers, boats, personnel and other such things that cost huge amounts to the tax payer. As a result they also have boat registration in most (all?) states etc with fees / taxes as appropriate.

Is there any evidence that despite their 'greater enforcement' that fatality rates are lower?

So do you have a sliding scale on how much a life is worth, does it matter if they are related or not, or is it fixed fee?

[Starovich]

Originally Posted by Poly

Not when I'm cycling or walking!

Petty

Originally Posted by Poly

I wear a PFD or Lifejacket when on my 'RIB', when sailing dinghies, when kayaking/canoeing. I didn't when windsurfing this summer but I was mostly in my depth.

Windsurfing, if you are not a beginner, a Life jacket can be a hindrance, if you are expecting to go in the water then you are usually wearing a wetsuit (buoyancy and warmth) and are with a large floaty thing which (as long as the rig is tethered to the board) wont go that far.

If you do wear a jacket when its sensible to do so, then legislation or not you are not one that needs persuasion, education or penalty.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Starovich

So do you have a sliding scale on how much a life is worth, does it matter if they are related or not, or is it fixed fee?

Essentially its 'fixed fee'. I don't know what the number is - but everybody has a figure although most people won't admit it. Take some hypothetical questions. Let imagine that I could guarantee that if everyone paid 10p more in road tax a year we could save 10 lives (e.g. through greater police presence, improved road surfaces, signage etc). I guess a lot of people would say it was worth it. Now if I told you adding £100 to you road tax would save 1 life, would you pay it? What if it was £10,000... etc.

Originally Posted by Starovich

Petty

I made the point for a reason: more people drown when doing those activities than boating.

Windsurfing, if you are not a beginner, a Life jacket can be a hindrance, if you are expecting to go in the water then you are usually wearing a wetsuit (buoyancy and warmth) and are with a large floaty thing which (as long as the rig is tethered to the board) wont go that far.

I can assure you I am a beginner! But I made an educated personal risk assessment after discussing with the instructors. If I had been on my own, out my depth, a rocky/hard bottom, cold water, etc I would probably have reached a different conclusion. Understanding the risk rather than blindly assuming that 5L of PU foam is going to save my life is key. Interestingly the difference between a windsurf and a topper dinghy is very slight yet experiences sailors and windsurfers often arrive at different conclusions.

If you do wear a jacket when its sensible to do so, then legislation or not you are not one that needs persuasion, education or penalty.

But you are missing the point; legislation will have little impact on those who persistently refuse to wear a LJ, because they will still refuse (with no enforcement) - just as happens with seatbelts but even worse as it will be even less likely you get caught. In the meantime the people who were already following common sense get caught up in bureaucracy etc. or get prosecuted for technical breaches when their personal risk assessment said it was fine.

I have absolutely no issue with properly informed education. I wouldn't even object to legislation that LJ's must be carried for all on board (easier to enforce at slipways / marinas etc).

[PeterM]

I'm all for individual choices , but its hard enough to get people to carry things let alone wear a lj.

I think it says volumes that in any emergency situation the Cg will always ask if persons are wearing a lj.

Of course when I anchor and want to swim off the boat...will I need to wear one ?

No excuse not to wear one for general boating really.

[biffer]

I'm against compulsory wearing. When we're working up the river they are a pain in the arse. Laying on a pontoon trying to undo shackles etc they get in the way. Auto ones go off and manual ones can get the pull cord caught unless you tuck it in and neither are comfortable

[CJL]

Sorry guys but your all dreaming!

Try asking a rower to wear a lifejacket - you'll get slotted! They hate them and refuse to wear them. The Chief Harbour Master at the PLA couldn't get them to wear them for the Diamond Jubilee Pageant so I think e-petition or not, they won't wear them!

I'm very pro lifejackets but this isn't going to happen.

Chris

[C2 RIBS]

Originally Posted by CJL

Sorry guys but your all dreaming!

Try asking a rower to wear a lifejacket - you'll get slotted! They hate them and refuse to wear them. The Chief Harbour Master at the PLA couldn't get them to wear them for the Diamond Jubilee Pageant so I think e-petition or not, they won't wear them!

I'm very pro lifejackets but this isn't going to happen.

Chris

Spot on Chris

[Starovich]

OK.

I see we will have to differ on this one.

However, I am not a Life-boatman, I am not a volunteer lifesaver, but have had to bring people who refused to wear life jackets home.

We picked up 2 local lads from the water, ashen grey, blue lips, ice cold, eyes open and glazed.
Laid up on a outer mooring whilst body bags were brought out.
Put the lads in the bags and transferred them to a smaller boat due to depth constraints.

Whilst moving the lads between the boats one of the zips broke and his head flopped out of the boat hitting the guard rail with a empty hollow "thowk", a sound i will never forget.

I then had to stitch him back into the bag so it couldn't happen again.

We had to bring the lads to the ambulance on the slip where the coastguard and the rest of the village and the parents of one of the lads were waiting. The scene i think you can imagine.

I don't care how precious you think your right to not wear LJ is, don't care about the cost, I don't care how much of a Prima Donna you are.

I never want to feel the way I did facing his mother when i carried the body to the ambulance again.....



PS Biffer, what happens when your faffing with wiring shackles when the wire catches your shirt and the weight of the ground tackle pulls you in, with no jacket on? Seen it happen.......

[CornishAvon]

Did they perish from cold exposure or drowning?

[GJ0KYZ]

Originally Posted by CornishAvon

Did they perish from cold exposure or drowning?

I don't think that really matters. The point is that lifejackets cost less then £50 and they could save your life. In my opinion it's poor judgment not to wear one. And if you're still not convinced I suggest you try jumping off your boat at 20kts and see how you feel then. I've been doing a far amount of MOB practice on my jetski recently and it's a real eye opener. Falling in the sea and having to swim to your craft is desperate even when you're wearing a wetsuit and a PFD. Seriously, give it a go; it'll convert to wearing a LJ straight away.

[CornishAvon]

Originally Posted by GJ0KYZ

I don't think that really matters. The point is that lifejackets cost less then £50 and they could save your life. In my opinion it's poor judgment not to wear one. And if you're still not convinced I suggest you try jumping off your boat at 20kts and see how you feel then. I've been doing a far amount of MOB practice on my jetski recently and it's a real eye opener. Falling in the sea and having to swim to your craft is desperate even when you're wearing a wetsuit and a PFD. Seriously, give it a go; it'll convert to wearing a LJ straight away.

My point is - It makes a huge difference imho because the lads may have died from cold exposure which then leeds onto the question should dry suits become law! I know what the guy is going on about. I was trying to make my own point - ok? Don't try telling me my question does not matter!

I deleted my original reply to you GJOKYZ. Maybe you read it I don't know but please don't assume your experience as a jet skier entering water at speeds makes you some sort of expert on whether we should be wearing them or not. Others have past professional experiences at sea as well you know......

[GJ0KYZ]

Originally Posted by CornishAvon

I deleted my original reply to you GJOKYZ. Maybe you read it I don't know but please don't assume your experience as a jet skier entering water at speeds makes you some sort of expert on whether we should be wearing them or not. Others have past professional experiences at sea as well you know......

Calm down mate before you blow a valve. All I'm saying is that most people have no idea how frightening and difficult it is to swim fully clothed at sea. Read the RNLI advert I posted earlier; it kinda speaks for itself. If people don't want to wear a LJ then that's their choice; I just think it's the wrong choice that's all. I get criticised for skiing alone and for taking my rib up crazy-shallow estuaries, but those are my choices. And FYI, years ago when I was a commercial fisherman I lost several friends who fell overboard whilst working alone not wearing a LJ.

[Dirk Diggler]

I think the E petition needs amending, as this shouldn't be allowed to happen!
Someone drowns in a tub nearly every day in America - seattlepi.com

[Al Baker]

I wouldn't consider going out without wearing a lifejacket. Lifejackets saved my life twice now already.
However, I don't think they should be made compulsory purely because I subscribe to Darwins theory. I'd prefer it if the human gene pool remained lean and clean as was in the past.

[biffer]

I think that people drown befor they die of exposer the cold just saps there strength and that's it. They tell you not to swim if you go over the side but stay as still as you can. It's to do with the envelope of water around your body staying warm for longer

[CornishAvon]

Originally Posted by GJ0KYZ

Calm down mate before you blow a valve. All I'm saying is that most people have no idea how frightening and difficult it is to swim fully clothed at sea. Read the RNLI advert I posted earlier; it kinda speaks for itself. If people don't want to wear a LJ then that's their choice; I just think it's the wrong choice that's all. I get criticised for skiing alone and for taking my rib up crazy-shallow estuaries, but those are my choices. And FYI, years ago when I was a commercial fisherman I lost several friends who fell overboard whilst working alone not wearing a LJ.

So lets get this right - I asked a perfectly reasonable question - you responded (with out the ability to answer my question) and told me my point was not valid! Then you went onto to say anybody who does not wear a life jacket has poor judgement despite you then admitting you go up "crazy shallow" water in your rib and "ski alone"!

Not really interested in your last part - not sure why you posted that? Are you looking for respect or something? If you were trying to suggest you have past experience in the marine environment then fine just say that - although never seen any fisherman wearing LJs either - does that mean you didn't either! Course not other wise you would be contradicting yourself silly..?

Hardly a blown valve pal! What I don't like is the way you attempt to tell me my point is not valid! I will be the judge of that thanks. Moving on......

[CornishAvon]

Originally Posted by biffer

I think that people drown befor they die of exposer the cold just saps there strength and that's it. They tell you not to swim if you go over the side but stay as still as you can. It's to do with the envelope of water around your body staying warm for longer

Hi Biffer

Thats really the avenue of thought/questioning I was going down/asking before being told my point wasn't valid. I wanted to know if thermal shock/cold water immersion leading to drowning was possibly a factor (still have not been told) as then a LJ would not have helped those guys much. Anyway not really bothered now - seems if you have a differing opinion on here some idiot try's to tell you how his past marine experience (jet skiing) makes him a expert!

Moving on and rant over - how are you feeling now better I trust.