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Old 05 December 2008, 04:28   #51
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I remember being told that you should only use a 275N LJ if you are carrying heavy equipment on your person or heavy oilskins / Dry Suit as it needed the mass to right the body + LJ to the correct orientation.
I was told that some tests had shown very lite people with little clothing in a 275N would not right and could be floating inverted and unable to right themselves due to the buoyancy forces. I'm pretty sure this came from one of the cold water survival researchers at a conference.

Personally I use a manual 125N for safety / work boat use and want to get an auto 275N with hood, light and legs for offshore/night use.
If you can a radio, a night & Day flare and a decent knife are things I think are smart ideas have on it. Without looking like action man's utility belt.

Would be interesting to see what the professional trainers have to say.
Jelly
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Old 05 December 2008, 05:01   #52
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I always thought jeans would be good to keep warm as long as kept dry so I'm glad you've pointed out they aren't. No cotton too? Will have to remember that.
For future ref does anyone know the BEST type of normal day (as in stuff you can go to asda and pick up) clothes to wear, what fabric etc?

Next Q,
with you saying about getting the right buoyancy, to tell the truth I'm a cat funt by way of beer bellie, so most of my weight is lower down (I'm sure I'm hung like a donkey too but haven't seen it since I was 18 and doing weights ) So taking into account I'd have clothing on, drysuit with light sailing boots on, would the 275N be best for keeping my head out?
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Old 05 December 2008, 05:06   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
interesting comment. I normally float head up without too much effort, although agree ankle weights are not needed.



There comes a point when any material under the drysuit will become saturated and the termal protection from layers of trapped air no longer work. You will get cold, particularly during winter months. The wind chill across a drysuit thats constantly being covered in spray is the problem. During the summer you tend to be just soggy but warm so it's not as noticeable or a problem.


Pete
Sorry I didn't explain myself too well, with an ILB crewsaver jacket on and drysuit I float with my head and front of jacket above water with my knees/feet just showing. It surprising how well the yellow wellies on our suits stand out.
I've never had the problem of my undersuit been soaked during the winter, I have been too warm but a quick dip in the sea sorts that.

I think what we have is more or less ideal for what we use it for although if it was my choice I would use a thin liner during summer. The only reason we have to wear a thick liner all year is we don't know when or where we'll get tasked to?
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Old 05 December 2008, 05:34   #54
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Originally Posted by JSP View Post
I always thought jeans would be good to keep warm as long as kept dry so I'm glad you've pointed out they aren't. No cotton too? Will have to remember that.
For future ref does anyone know the BEST type of normal day (as in stuff you can go to asda and pick up) clothes to wear, what fabric etc?

Next Q,
with you saying about getting the right buoyancy, to tell the truth I'm a cat funt by way of beer bellie, so most of my weight is lower down (I'm sure I'm hung like a donkey too but haven't seen it since I was 18 and doing weights ) So taking into account I'd have clothing on, drysuit with light sailing boots on, would the 275N be best for keeping my head out?
when we travel offshore we have to watch a dvd brief first .....jeans are not the prefered cause they soak up water a take an age to dry and can be quite heavy ....shouldnt really matter though if the drysuit is 100% waterproof .....it recommends cords but there not mandatory ....when going onto the choppers we wear a survival suit with a built in liner (pia to get on and off) the lifejacket has a built in re-breather and a plb from here http://www.seamarshall.com/home.php

having been in the water before i would echo Dougs advise ....spray hoods ....a definate must ....so easy to get water up your nose and in your eyes from licking waves ....then the coughing and spluttering gags in easily avoidable with a sprayhood ......


drysuit is by far my preferred in the RIB but with 3 thin layers of clothes underneath rather than one heavy set ....rarely ever wear jeans ....for passengers i have mullion flotation suits

I
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Old 05 December 2008, 09:21   #55
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Originally Posted by Nos4r2 View Post
Doug, just a thought. What do you think of the idea of wearing light ankle weights (not enough to give you negative bouyancy) with a drysuit and a 150n LJ?
Never come across it other than for divers (where they do have negative buoyancy) but I would have though that if the weights were not negatively buoyant (i.e. heavier than water) they would make no difference. Remember removing as much air as possible is important when using a dry suit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jelly View Post
I remember being told that you should only use a 275N LJ if you are carrying heavy equipment on your person or heavy oilskins / Dry Suit as it needed the mass to right the body + LJ to the correct orientation.
I was told that some tests had shown very lite people with little clothing in a 275N would not right and could be floating inverted and unable to right themselves due to the buoyancy forces. I'm pretty sure this came from one of the cold water survival researchers at a conference.
I would be interested to hear/read some more details on this. From memory the standard 150N are designed for adults and teenagers (over 40 kilos, this may vary slightly with different manufactures) I think this is the same for the 275N (will check and confirm/correct this on Monday). That said I would not advocate someone slight wearing a 275 unnecessarily as once inflated it is enormous and very difficult to then climb into a raft/RIB/marina pontoon etc. As already said itís about having the right kit for the right situation.

The generally accepted practice in the leisure world is to wear a 275N if you fall into one of these categories.
ē Single handed operator (therefore unlikely to have survival craft nearby).
ē Particularly heavy people (we are talking twenty something stones).
ē Those wearing heavy tool belts or similar.
ē Those wearing dry suits or rubber sealed ankles where large amount of air can be trapped in the legs.
ē Operating in an ocean environment where the expected wave height is bigger

This list is not exhaustive but a guide. Most commercial users wear one; this is as a result of HS risk assessments. The RNLI wear them. I donít want to sound like Iím belittling the 275 because it has its place but it is slightly heavier and bulkier to wear, it is massive once inflated and itís more expensive (not wanting to start the cost vs. human life debate).

One of the biggest benefits I see of the 275N is that many manufacturers make it with two lungs; therefore if one was damaged there is effectively a back up. The 2nd lung has an independent canister and firing system.

I would suggest for inshore leisure RIB users who are operating with others on board there are other safety devices that may be more worthwhile for your money (the hood and crotch straps already mentioned being two of them) and that regular servicing and inspection is particularly effective.

Iíve got a 275 and a 150, I wear the 275 rarely. I have thoroughly experimented with my dry suit/LJ combo and found it worked for (up righted) me. We are of course all different.

I have seen numerous students on Sea Survival Courses whose 150N life jacket have failed to turn them upright, ignoring the dry suit guys this has nearly always been due to a badly fitting (too loos) LJ and/or no crotch strap. WE have a contract with a local fire brigade for Sea Survival training, as they all turn up in heavy duty dry suits with integral wellies I have had to buy some 275 specifically for them for the pool.

We did have one girl, must have weighed about 55kg who would not right from a 150N, she told me she carried 14kg weight when diving in the Red Sea (which is loads more than I carry at approaching twice her weight). So there are always people that are different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSP View Post
I always thought jeans would be good to keep warm as long as kept dry so I'm glad you've pointed out they aren't. No cotton too? Will have to remember that.
For future ref does anyone know the BEST type of normal day (as in stuff you can go to asda and pick up) clothes to wear, what fabric etc?
The best first layer (next to skin) would be treated polyester or silk, There are plenty companies that make good thermals, you might find the ski and outdoor stores slightly cheaper than some of the yachting branded stuff. A very thin pair of socks is good as well as are some very thin gloves.

The next layer can be heavier poly or fleece. A lot of people got for roll neck and long sleeves. I have been over the years issued loads of crap fleeces by outdoor centres and sailing schools I used to work at. For about 10 years I have only worn Mustso, Iím not saying there are the only or best brand but they work. I have had students who have bought cheap high street fleeces and get cold very quickly, I think itís because the stitching is not close enough. Musto do a mid layer called shell, its very thin and tight fitting. I bought one after the Round Britain and Ireland Race (got very cold in 06) and it is what I wear in the winter under dry suit or oilies. In olden days sailors wore wool, still good but has been overtaken by many man made fabrics.

Several thin layers that do not restrict movement is the answer, have a look on the websites of Musto, Henri Lloyd, Gul, etc they will explain it more accurately than |I have.
Quote:
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Next Q,
with you saying about getting the right buoyancy, to tell the truth I'm a cat funt by way of beer bellie, so most of my weight is lower down (I'm sure I'm hung like a donkey too but haven't seen it since I was 18 and doing weights ) So taking into account I'd have clothing on, dry suit with light sailing boots on, would the 275N be best for keeping my head out?
Itís not about keeping your head out, it more about the turning effect of an unconscious casualty. A well fitted 150 would probably do the job, but see above. There is no harm in trying it out on the slipway next time you are launching. Hold your breath lay face down, go as relaxed/limp as you can and see what happened. If it does not turn you face up then do it yourself and go shopping. Every person is different but a well fitting 150 works for most.
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Old 05 December 2008, 11:35   #56
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I always thought jeans would be good to keep warm as long as kept dry so I'm glad you've pointed out they aren't. No cotton too? Will have to remember that.
When wet, cotton fibers collapse and trap water. When you combine those, it's nearly the same as being immersed. Wool doesn't absorb water, but will hold it in the weave to a fair degree, but also retains bulk. Which is why wool is preferred over cotton in extreme conditions (which is a relative term, I suppose.)

Modern synthetics (polypropylene, capilene, etc.) do not absorb water in the fibers (though they do trap it between threads of the weave to some extent), and the good ones retain their bulk when moist, and tend to shed the water from the weave, thus retaining some insulative properties.

When diving, I use a base layer of polypropylene, and a merino wool jump suit over that. My feet get a thin hydrophobic liner, a fleece sock, and a heavy wool sock. I tend not to move too much when diving so have a tendency to get colder than most, I think (combination of taking pictures and being lazy.)


I should probably add that what I wear would be overkill for staying above water. You'd probably roast on all but the coldest days.

jky
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Old 05 December 2008, 13:29   #57
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Never come across it other than for divers (where they do have negative buoyancy) but I would have though that if the weights were not negatively buoyant (i.e. heavier than water) they would make no difference. Remember removing as much air as possible is important when using a dry suit


Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant using a light set of divers lead ankle weights that weren't heavy enough to make you negatively buoyant in a drysuit but enough to make you float head up, then a 150n lifejacket as well.
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