View Poll Results: Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords with fines for non compliance?
Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords with fines for non compliance 130 22.15%
Keep the current unregulated system with an emphasis on education 457 77.85%
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Old 11 August 2013, 03:06   #491
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If you can say with CERTAINTY that a COMPETITOR in an event has behaved inappropriately from the time of arrival at the event until departure from the event they are governed by the Racing Rules of Sailing. You would be within your rights to report the incident to the Race Organiser and if you genuinely believe they acted in a dangerous fashion with disregard to the safety of others you should ask them to investiagte under Rule 69 of the RRS.

Not wearing a lifejacket or kill cord is not going to be enough. Failure to follow the IPRCS and requiring you to take avoiding action possibly is.

They need to be competitors not spectators.

Whats your definition of overloaded? A 5.4 Sea rider is rated to 10 pax/crew I think that'd be cosy...
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Old 11 August 2013, 03:40   #492
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Originally Posted by C2 RIBS View Post
So as we know same every year and nothing changes , so what has to be done to change attitudes ? Heavy enforcement ? Most don't want that but we being afloat more than others do see the worst especially at big events but before more die either training has to be harder and cover even more on safety? Or governments get too involved and it won't take many more deaths/incidents for media to spark that one
Ian, it is just complacency really. I have always stressed the importance of the kill cord. I make a point of demonstrating it on every course and even get the students to pull it themselves. I really don't know what the answer is, I have felt on several occasions of mentioning to people I see without the kill cord attached to their person and on the one occasion I did I was treated to Foxtrot Oscar and mind you fing business. Yesterday again there was a small inflatable heading up the Hamble with 8 people on it, all with beers in hand and no LJ's I passed the comment that I hope it didn't sink - more verbal abuse.

Perhaps it is time for the insurance companies to get harder. No kill cord or qualifications then no insurance or payout in the event of an incident. But as we well know, insurance is not mandatory unless operating from a marina.

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Old 11 August 2013, 03:53   #493
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Originally Posted by ShinyShoe View Post
If you can say with CERTAINTY that a COMPETITOR in an event has behaved inappropriately from the time of arrival at the event until departure from the event they are governed by the Racing Rules of Sailing. You would be within your rights to report the incident to the Race Organiser and if you genuinely believe they acted in a dangerous fashion with disregard to the safety of others you should ask them to investiagte under Rule 69 of the RRS.

Not wearing a lifejacket or kill cord is not going to be enough. Failure to follow the IPRCS and requiring you to take avoiding action possibly is.
Who will do what????

They are even more toothless than the authorities are! plus they will investigate, How? CCTV?, Witnesses?

How many competitors are driving ribs/motorboats anyway?

As already mentioned, if there were more incidents, heaven forbid, then after the Padstow incident, there will likely be much more demand for action, and there will likely be a LOT more regulation than most here are willing to accept.

Of course all Ribnobbers are safe anyway, so I am preaching to the converted, but how do you get the message across to the other 95% of boaters of all flavours out there?

The HM, and police already have a set of rules that they can enforce, the Colregs apply to everyone, in every craft, (vessel) and can be prosecuted for failure to comply. A bit of a fudge, and not a very good way of doing things, but if there are no police or enforcement officers taking action, you will continue to see what you are currently seeing. it just human nature to get away with whatever you think you can.
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Old 11 August 2013, 04:05   #494
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@SolentRanger - one of the things I spend a lot of time at work doing, is trying to get my staff to look at how they challenge bad practice as well as challenging it. They would typically get responses like you get (perhaps with a little less FO as they are working with their "colleagues").

I don't know how you posed the question but if I take the two extremes we might see at work one person might pull up along side and say something like "You need to put your kill cord on before you kill someone..." We'd be suggesting they get a better response by pulling alongside and just saying "Sorry to bother you, wasn't sure if you'd realised you'd forgotten to attach your kill cord, I'm always forgetting to attach mine.." and then not entering into any further discussion unless they say "What that red dangly thing... dunno what I'm meant to do with that?"

Id still want the insurers to pay a 3rd party...?
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Old 11 August 2013, 04:18   #495
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Who will do what????

They are even more toothless than the authorities are! plus they will investigate, How? CCTV?, Witnesses?
Rule 69 would result in a protest hearing. If they concluded that their behavior brought the event into disrepute (you guys seem to be suggesting that they are) then they have no choice but the penalise the boat's race result which could include disqualification. In addition all Rule 69 infringements are reportable to the RYA which could result in a boat being banned from all racing (like a drug infringement).

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How many competitors are driving ribs/motorboats anyway?
No idea. Only working with the information others have posted...

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Of course all Ribnobbers are safe anyway, so I am preaching to the converted, but how do you get the message across to the other 95% of boaters of all flavours out there?
Well event organisers have a responsibility for things like Cows Week. They don't want people getting minced up at their events - its not good publicity. There isn't exactly much said in the safety booklet about floatation devices and nothing about kill cords. Would be easy enough for them to add a section for tenders and such like. The RRS don't allow them to regulate the use of lifejackets except during the race (Race starts 10minutes before the gun - when the warning signal is issued).
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Old 11 August 2013, 04:24   #496
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Originally Posted by C2 RIBS View Post
So as we know same every year and nothing changes , so what has to be done to change attitudes ? Heavy enforcement ? Most don't want that but we being afloat more than others do see the worst especially at big events but before more die either training has to be harder and cover even more on safety? Or governments get too involved and it won't take many more deaths/incidents for media to spark that one
Statistically Cowes Week is actually very safe. A huge number of people in a small area with very few serious incidents. I haven't looked at the data but I would guess that actually in terms of people needing hospital treatment at Cowes Week that they will actually come from yacht boom or mainsail block or fingers in winches/windlasses etc.

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Perhaps it is time for the insurance companies to get harder. No kill cord or qualifications then no insurance or payout in the event of an incident. But as we well know, insurance is not mandatory unless operating from a marina.
I'm never keen to give insurers extra reasons to weasel out of payments; especially since those payments are likely to be to 'innocent' third parties affected by the actions of a few stupid people. I would have no objection to mandatory 3rd party insurance (as per the roads), but even on the roads where the requirement has been in place for over 80 years, and all vehicles and drivers are uniquely registered it is far from clear that the system is particularly effective. It certainly wouldn't be a magic wand. In reality if the number (and value) of kill cord incidents or incompetent drivers was that high then insurers would already be offering huge price differentials which would encourage people to get trained etc.
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Old 11 August 2013, 04:27   #497
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Originally Posted by tonto View Post
Who will do what????

They are even more toothless than the authorities are! plus they will investigate, How? CCTV?, Witnesses?

The HM, and police already have a set of rules that they can enforce, the Colregs apply to everyone, in every craft, (vessel) and can be prosecuted for failure to comply. A bit of a fudge, and not a very good way of doing things, but if there are no police or enforcement officers taking action, you will continue to see what you are currently seeing. it just human nature to get away with whatever you think you can.
Ohh Humm! I'm going to regret this but here goes anyway:-

So what you're saying is that the current regs are ignored/flouted/un-enforced.. BUT you still advocate yet more regs & the introduction of compulsory kill cords/lifejackets/qualifications etc. Presumably the "Tonto Act: (the protection of knobheads at sea regulations 2014)" will also be ignored/flouted/un-enforceable I think the circle is now complete
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Old 11 August 2013, 06:00   #498
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Ohh Humm! I'm going to regret this but here goes anyway:-

So what you're saying is that the current regs are ignored/flouted/un-enforced.. BUT you still advocate yet more regs & the introduction of compulsory kill cords/lifejackets/qualifications etc. Presumably the "Tonto Act: (the protection of knobheads at sea regulations 2014)" will also be ignored/flouted/un-enforceable I think the circle is now complete
There are no regs for kill cords or LJ, or anything other than Rules of the road to be followed, (I count only 1 reg, not multiple regs.) It seems like there is little incentive for anyone to do anything, as there is no penalty for spending money on safety equipment, or using it.
Last week you were suggesting in rather strong terms that someone take a VHF course, Why? because it could save your life (as well as being manditory) so why are you against having a requirement to use Kill cords or LJ's?, or being pissed
And the whole thing is about enforcement, without it, no amount of regs will actually solve anything, you end up with a bunch of idiots who dont care, as they want to do whatever they want, as there is nothing to tell them they must be responsible and act in a way that does not end up killing others. Sounds rather familiar to me

An example, I have been through Singapore straights and Dover straights many times. Singapore is a complete nightmare, very few people obay rules of the road or reporting procedures etc. English Channel, completely different, ships do what they are supposed to, follow ROR, report as they are required, and even fishing boats show correct light etc, why? because if you go through English channel, and dont follow the rules there WILL be police waiting for you when you dock at the next port. The large vessels are the same ones going through both places, with the same crews on, the only difference is the enforcement of the already in place rules.

Rules without enforcement are pointless. We end up in Pikey world!

people say enforcement is impossible, but why do people not (so often) break speed limits on the thames, and other places? because they know they are going to get pulled for it.

However looking at the stats above 80% want anarchy, and therefore should not moan when we do in fact, get the situation we find ourselves in!
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Old 11 August 2013, 14:40   #499
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Last week you were suggesting in rather strong terms that someone take a VHF course, Why? .........
Because he was going to get a VHF, simples. There's no requirement to carry a vhf, but if you do, then you need to know how to use it, which is a tad more involved than clipping on a killcord, if you cant work out how to use a killcord without an act of parliament.............
BTW who is going to pay for all this enforcement in this Marine Police State of yours? 3 guesses
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Old 11 August 2013, 14:49   #500
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Because he was going to get a VHF, simples. There's no requirement to carry a vhf, but if you do, then you need to know how to use it, which is a tad more involved than clipping on a killcord, if you cant work out how to use a killcord without an act of parliament.............
BTW who is going to pay for all this enforcement in this Marine Police State of yours, 3 guesses
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