View Poll Results: Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords with fines for non compliance?
Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords with fines for non compliance 130 22.15%
Keep the current unregulated system with an emphasis on education 457 77.85%
Voters: 587. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 14 May 2013, 10:43   #421
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Everyone has centered their thinking on running at speed across the water. If fishing, the majority of the time is spent at slow speeds with lines out trolling. You don't shut off the engine when it is necessary for the helmsman to do other duties but change helmsmen sometimes often during the process. Shutting down the engine for even a short time often results in a nightmare of a line tangling situation.

You run to the fishing grounds at speed and then slow to fishing speed. A kill switch when running at speed is highly recommended, but it is in the way when actually fishing. A law which states that it must be used at all times would make no sense. You must use common sense rather than a blanket regulation.

Conversely, you should be educated enough to know when to attach the cord for safety. Sea conditions, speed, solo or with a companion, and other factors are weighed to make the proper choice for whatever is necessary.

If you use your craft for a high speed toy, wear a kill switch set up. You are in the same category as a jet ski under those conditions. If you use your boat for other reasons, then use judgement.

An incident of someone making a poor choice should not result in a rule which makes no sense. I see this whole thread as much hysteria about nothing. You would think that it is a common thing is to have unmanned boats with throttles full open running around your waterways. I tend to doubt that.
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Old 14 May 2013, 10:51   #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterM View Post
Is pb2 an actual qualification or a course completion cert?..just being pedantic....
I believe it's deemed a qualification - you used to be able to commercially endorse PB2 for Cat 6 operation - not sure if you still can?

I used to be a PBI - and we used to pack in as much as we could into a 2 day Level 2 course, not just the mandatory RYA content. We never failed anyone, but if we felt that the person was dangerous on the water, then I don't think we would pass them without extra time on the water to make sure that they weren't dangerous.

Having said that - this was in a yacht club based environment where we could arrange extra time on the water relatively easily, and not a commercial centre where people might expect to pay the money, attend a two day course and then walk away with the ticket.

On the other stuff - my first boat - 7.8m Ribcraft with a 315HP engine

Kill cord - hell yes - every time - but that's not to say that I haven't forgotten once or twice...

And for the proponents of spring loaded throttles - an exercise we did as part of our capsize drill on the D-Class was to jump over the side of the boat (with the engine off) on a calm day with a bit of a breeze. Sort yourself out - bouyancy of drysuit etc, and then get back to the boat. It's amazing how quickly a boat with 3 (fairly hefty) blokes will blow away from you in even relatively calm conditions - only made more difficult by swimming in a LJ. There is no way on the planet that you'd catch a boat on tickover.
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Old 14 May 2013, 10:56   #423
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Quote:
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Well I guess you can fail (rarely) - even if you do complete the course - does that make it a qualification?

PB2 is really all about slow speed boat handling with a smattering of navigation & MOB practice. There is precious little 'on the plane' experience, which does surprise me. Especially if its supposed to prepare you for RIBs.
My PBL2 course had a section that included high speed handling and waves. We spent a good 40 minutes in Hayling Bay at WOT a lot of the time. Sounds as though your instructor wasn't up to much?
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Old 14 May 2013, 11:02   #424
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Originally Posted by Meeko View Post
On Loch Lomond which is inland and fresh water the boat needs to be registered and have insurance to be used. They are strict about a minimum of 2 in the boat, lifejackets for all, ideally marine radio, flares, speed within 150 mts of the shore limited to 5knts and use of kill switches. The Loch is patrolled and funded by the power boat users. It seems to work well. Anyone under 16 yrs must be supervised by a responsible adult (Hmmm if you can find one) and alcohol controlled.
Gordon - most of that is not true!

LL&TNPA Bylaws:

(1) DO require registration
(2) DO NOT require insurance
(3) DO NOT impose minimum no's of person on board
(4) DO require lifejackets to be carried - never actually had mine checked only asked if I had them (although we do put them on before launch so perhaps they question those afloat not wearing them)
(5) Never been asked about VHF or flares. For a long time (and possibly still now) the rangers did not have a VHF base station and so there was no listening watch.
(6) Supervision only required above 5HP
(7) Speed limit applies within most of the shore (and some other areas 'offshore') but NOT all of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaingRed View Post
And if WE as a Community keep up the Self Policing as mister p says, along with a check on qualification/license then I think we'll be closer to the goal of weeding out potential needless accidents.
So what are you suggesting a voluntary scheme where people could do some training and get a certificate of competence, perhaps run by a network of 'sea schools' and sailing clubs? Perhaps the certificate could actually be one of a series depending on the type of boating you plan to do. Maybe the top level could even lead to a route to commercial skippering? The "community" could encourage its members to join up to that scheme and get training etc.

Perhaps we could get a national organisation to run an informal scheme where people can get boat safety advice too. Nothing as formal as an MoT but helpful, relevant and appropriate advice - the sort of thing the local lifeboat crew might give you if they were to see your boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by longjohn View Post
There is precious little 'on the plane' experience, which does surprise me. Especially if its supposed to prepare you for RIBs.
Sounds like you picked a bad centre for your needs. PB2 is broad and can cover a wide range of boat types.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterM View Post
I guess thats my point - 'IF' ( and its a big 'IF') legislation was introduced how can a standard (of say PB2) be used if you can't fail it ? A qualification should be pass/ fail - otherwise I'd have more A levels !!!
You CAN fail PB2. In reality most schools spend extra time with struggling candidates to get them through but, e.g. if you just went for the "direct assessment" (the "test" without the training) then you might well fail.
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Old 14 May 2013, 11:24   #425
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I guess thats my point - 'IF' ( and its a big 'IF') legislation was introduced how can a standard (of say PB2) be used if you can't fail it ?
Well we must be doing something wrong, failed a few over the years last one was only 3 weeks ago !!!
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Old 14 May 2013, 11:40   #426
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Well we must be doing something wrong, failed a few over the years last one was only 3 weeks ago !!!
Sounds as though you are doing things right rather than wrong! Last thing we need are more incompetent people rocking up waving PBL2 certificates. We actually had some PBL2 drivers at the club who despite holding PBL2 licences, couldn't actually park the RIB on the pontoon!
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Old 14 May 2013, 11:43   #427
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Well we must be doing something wrong, failed a few over the years last one was only 3 weeks ago !!!
ah - buts that's why you run a respected school Brian ....but you did pass me ?

There are as we all know schools that seem to have you have attended (and most importantly paid) therefore you have passed approach.
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Old 14 May 2013, 11:48   #428
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but you did pass me ?
Ah but did we not endorse your Cert " Must not be left un supervised"

Thanks Pete... we have had some outright dangerous students over the years, that all the time they were drawing breath we would never pass !!!
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Old 14 May 2013, 14:16   #429
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Many years ago, I was involved with building boats that were powered by Honda outboards, each boat/engine package came with a voucher from Honda for a days tuition with a very well respected RYA approved instructor.

All the instruction was given in our demo boat, which unfortunately suffered quite badly, mainly from slow speed collisions with pontoons, moored boats etc. None of this damage was done by the "students", but by the Instructor, who had every qualification going, but couldn't drive a boat to save his life!

The scarey thing is he was totally blind to his inability to close quarter manouvering, and his "high speed" driving was pretty shocking as well!
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Old 14 May 2013, 17:10   #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poly View Post

So what are you suggesting a voluntary scheme where people could do some training and get a certificate of competence, perhaps run by a network of 'sea schools' and sailing clubs? Perhaps the certificate could actually be one of a series depending on the type of boating you plan to do. Maybe the top level could even lead to a route to commercial skippering? The "community" could encourage its members to join up to that scheme and get training etc.

Perhaps we could get a national organisation to run an informal scheme where people can get boat safety advice too. Nothing as formal as an MoT but helpful, relevant and appropriate advice - the sort of thing the local lifeboat crew might give you if they were to see your boat.

Yes, I think this could be heading in the right direction. We are in a "community" of like minded individuals who are passionate aboat their bouts
Can anyone see a reason why we can't find a relatively simple solution to getting people qualified, educated and to be responsible whilst enjoying what we ALL enjoy? It needn't be over regulated or over priced, just more community spirit! Which is something the whole country lacks these days...What what!!

Just for the record, I did PB2 down in Poole, it was blowing a force 7 out at the entrance, which was fun and I learnt a fair bit about rough sea handling, then within the harbour where it was much more sheltered we spent a fair amount of time handling at 30knots plus.

Anyway, peace and love to all, lets get a "community" scheme running
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