View Poll Results: Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords with fines for non compliance?
Compulsory licensing and mandatory kill cords with fines for non compliance 130 22.15%
Keep the current unregulated system with an emphasis on education 457 77.85%
Voters: 587. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09 May 2013, 08:58   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGBARKER1 View Post
My ride-on mower has a "kill switch" under the seat so if you get off it, the engine stops- something similar could work on boats....???
urrmmm have you ever been out of the marina in your boat??
I doubt if you'd get very much further with a kill switch relying on you staying firmly planted on your seat!
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Old 09 May 2013, 08:58   #132
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Originally Posted by Ribbed41Pleasure View Post
harryesd - agreed,

Jezza . . . yes I do. And yes I wear it around my leg, as per my training advice years ago. Unfortunately the design of my boat means I have to spread my legs a bit . . . oooh er, or stand or sit and move about so it is very easy to move your leg back and pop! Everyone goes flying forward! My previous boat lent itself to having a kill chord on at all times whereas this one does not. You could argue that for that reason a kill chord on this boat is more a necessity and I actually agree. But, fortunately when I do wear the kill chord I am usually solo or with only a couple of people well seated and secure so when it does kill it is a frustration not an accident. It is the days when I have standing room only type trips where it becomes just as dangerous to have one than it is not too! Again you could then argue is going out on the boat in this configuration dangerous in itself. Probably, as is driving in my car to the marina but hey we still do it.

If we all employed the adage, there are those that have and those that will, boat safety would be so much better and also self regulated. Utopia is hard to achieve sadly.

Get a longer cord? Join two together?

Quote:
Originally Posted by abduls friend View Post
I'm not responding as an RNLI spokesperson, but my understanding is where fitted on RIBs SIBs with wheel steering, killcords are worn. Where tiller steering, if killcords fitted, they are worn. However, some engines used in smaller craft have tiller throttles which are designed to kill if released.
My understanding is that the RIB and SIBs don't use kill cords - ever. We have a surf rescue RNLI station here and they never use killcords unless policy has changed for the new season?
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When a boat looks that good who needs tubes!!!
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Old 09 May 2013, 08:59   #133
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Current poll score-76% against regulation, 24% for.

Hugo MS, are you listening?
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Old 09 May 2013, 09:01   #134
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Originally Posted by Nos4r2 View Post
Coming from someone who 'had a word with the harbour masters' in Bristol basin so you could nail about and speed test your boat, and filmed your child at the helm solo I think maybe you should be reminded that it'll apply to you as well.
Thanks for bringing the point to my attention
I had a commercial licence and my son has done a powerboat level 2 and will soon be doing his safety boat certificate.
I think you may have confused me with some of the idiots i see flying around with no sense or training.
I have been testing mine and others boats in that basin for nearly 20 years and no the limitations.
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Old 09 May 2013, 09:05   #135
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Originally Posted by teamplonker View Post
Thanks for bringing the point to my attention
I had a commercial licence and my son has done a powerboat level 2 and will soon be doing his safety boat certificate.
I think you may have confused me with some of the idiots i see flying around with no sense or training.
I have been testing mine and others boats in that basin for nearly 20 years and no the limitations.
I haven't confused you with anyone and what I saw you doing in your vids was actually pretty sensible. However, if you push for legislation, it will apply to you as well. Don't expect it to allow you to continue the way you have been as the people who are allowing you to do what you've been doing will soon realise they can't allow it without being fined/hammered themselves.

A bit like the landlords getting fined/shut down if they don't call the police if someone lights up a cigarette in their pub. Not that there's any pubs left...

Government legislation WILL be the thin end of the wedge and the morons will still sit there and say 'durrrr, duzznt appliy ter meee'.

Common sense and legislation are not bedfellows. In too many cases one negates the other.
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Old 09 May 2013, 09:09   #136
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Originally Posted by thomas View Post
I had 4 takers on my offer just simple red letters to remind you - Offer still open for anyone that want one.
Hi Thomas - I will take one from you please and will send address in pm. if you could email the 'design' or wording I could get a whole lot priced up - without any reference to any commercial organisation and offer them to ribnet users, maybe?

Thank you
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Old 09 May 2013, 09:11   #137
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Hi Thomas - I will take one from you please and will send address in pm. if you could email the 'design' or wording I could get a whole lot priced up - without any reference to any commercial organisation and offer them to ribnet users, maybe?

Thank you
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Old 09 May 2013, 09:16   #138
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Originally Posted by Boats&Outboards View Post
You do not know that this particular chap had "no clue with a fat wallet". I personally know who sold the boat new to this family 2 years ago and my understanding is they were not what you are portraying.

Peter @ Boatsandoutboards4sale ~ BoatsandOutboards4Sale | Hand-picked boats & motors, fully tested, delivered nationwide. ~ 07930 421007
wasn't inferring anything in this particular case.
Its something i have seen first hand over a number of years. The point was who is going to enforce any training requirements. In addition I don't think anyone selling a boat has a responsibility for how the skipper uses it.
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Old 09 May 2013, 09:17   #139
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Originally Posted by London_RIB View Post
Interesting that this is in favour of Power Boat instructors to get more business! So surely they will be supporting this!

Perhaps the rules should only be applied to inland/coastal waterways as well as being able to convert various other forms of qualifications/experience into a license!

Oh! and why not make similar requiremnets for cycling/skiing?!!!!!

I voted no and I am a instructor, principle of a powerboat school and an RNLI helmsman. I said no because it is a knee jerk response made before all the facts have been told.

As I said the driver concerned may of had a PB2 or something similar.
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Old 09 May 2013, 09:18   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boycey View Post
You can't drive a car without a licence
Actually many people do every single day, despite a licensing process and enforcement infrastructure. Its almost certain that more people will be killed by unlicensed and/or uninsured drivers this year than boats without kill cords. And that is an an environment with the infrastructure and systems in place to identify and enforce non compliance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HugoMS View Post
For those of you who wish to impute wrong motives over our sticker campaign I wish to state the following:
I think I started that so lets discuss it!

Quote:
Here at Powerboat and RIB we are shocked, saddened and deeply upset over the tragic accident that happened in Padstow and we are determined to do all that we can to increase awareness of safety measures and to educate so that we might be able to go some way to help prevent another horrifying accident.
OK but what made this one more serious than the others, so that there was an immediate response?

Quote:
The reason we have used our logo is because we want to show that we care about this and that it carries a level of authority as having been designed and produced by people who know what they are talking about.
nobody really minds your small logo on the bottom - I wouldn't expect any different if it came from the engine maker, the RNLI or the RYA. However on the one hand you have produced a label and the other stated you think people should be prosecuted for not displaying such a label - your assumption seems to be that your label will meet any future requirements, otherwise I need to apply yours and change it when your hypothetical law arrives. Now if your label design had come about from lots of discussion with the RYA, MAIB, MCA, RNLI and other such bodies to try and come up with a good label design then expecting it to become industry standard might be reasonable. However rather than use international standards for warning signs etc you chose to go for your own style and then tell the world we should be prosecuted for not jumping on your band wagon. Don't be surprised if there is a backlash.

I think the RYA sticker you show in your attachement is actually more instructive than yours. However as with yours it is probably most likely to be used by those who already regularly use a cord. By all means lobby that engine makers provide a sticker for free with all engines, or that boat builders must mark all new consoles. I guess it depends who you think is easier to win over - your advertisers or your customers!

Quote:
We are not in any way suggesting that 'our' sticker be an officially legislated sign, but that each vessel should be required to carry a suitable warning.
do you have any evidence that such a sign is likely to reduce casualty rates? Is it required in other countries with lower incidence? Is there an equivalent in other industries which shows it is effective - or is it just SOME response to a problem that costs people money (even if only postage) and yields little if any benefit.

Quote:
As regards the thread concerning mandatory legislation and licencing, we are not suggesting this would stop all accidents or irresponsible behaviour, but if it helps to reduce such, it has to be worthwhile.
likewise is there any evidence that this would be the case. Intuitively it would, but a license could actually make things worse as people are entitled to drive it so assume they are competent.
Quote:
The legislation does not need to be burdensome or costly, but rather good practice. Who would really mind having a one day basic course on a subject they have a love for in order to obtain a licence that helps them to be a better seaman and gets them off to a better start?
It is already widely accepted good practice. How do you believe a 1 day course is going to make people better seamen than existing training - a 1 day "license" will probably see fewer people doing a PB2 course - because they have 'ticked the box'. Who do you envisage doing this - everyone who helms or only 'somebody on board'? Have you really thought this through?

This is not a new topic, and has been widely debated over the last 20+ yrs in the industry. What changed in the last week that meant PB&R suddenly felt the need to publicly declare their stance. By all means open the debate - but you will see elsewhere that not everyone agrees with you. I don't subscribe to the "last of our liberties" or "freedom of the seas" rhetoric but I just can't believe that any scheme will increase safety and not increase cost.

Kill cord use will not dramatically increase if you make it law, because people either don't bother because they don't care (and have low risk of being caught at sea) or because they accidentally forget.

With your industry connections would either (or both) of these stances not be both easier to achieve and likely to yield the same net effect:

(1) Look at mandatory 3rd party insurance for powerboats (or all boats). Inevitably if there is correlation between risk and training, then underwriters would be able to offer financial incentives for appropriate training. It is much easier to manage boats coming on/off the water or in/out harbours/marinas than to know who is driving a boat and how out at sea.
(2) Encourage boat sales to focus on training, kill cord placement / design / labelling / engineering to make their use more effective / automatic. How many vendors selling a 20k+ boat include any training with it other than a basic handover.
(3) Refuse to publish any pictures or adverts where kill cords are not being worn.
(4) Provide advertising posters showing (visually as per cigarette packets) what happens if you don't wear a cord to harbours, marinas, slipways and clubs. I'm sure you could even put your logo on them to add that extra bit of "professional credibility".

If it turns out that:

(1) the accident last weekend was by someone who had been trained OR
(2) the kill cord was being worn but failed in some way / became detached

will you be dropping your campaign?

If next week there is a family killed "because" they don't have lifejackets on will you begin another campaign?
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