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Old 08 February 2007, 17:25   #11
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Does anybody know were you can get the gemini surf grx from in the u.k?
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Old 08 February 2007, 19:47   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceasar View Post
I appreciate that there are not enough photos or videos on the site. We will work to rectify that over the summer.

WHAT??? And let the secret out?




The thunderbolt looks very cool, I'd love to try one sometime.


BumbleAbout,

I don't know what the packed dimensions of the Dive 470 will be, but I'm guessing that the total weight (including floorboards) will be somewhere in the 275 - 300 lb range.
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Old 09 February 2007, 04:01   #13
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ceasar - thanks for the reply - I may be in the minority here, but I like to research a product on the internet; narrow down the list; and finally visit a small number of vendors for demonstrations before I buy. If I am unable to see enough information about a product then I am suspicious - it might be a brilliant design, but why are more people not raving about it ? Rather than more photographs or videos, I would personally like to see (especially if a product is fairly new) :-

- some basic line drawings or even a table showing inflated & deflated dimensions (this helps me with trailer or car size and storage space when out of the water)
- a few configuration possibilities - my wife liked the look of the cobra seats for the children, but would have been sold immediately if there was a drawing showing that you could have a 2x2 configuration (you may only sell these to a small number of family boaters, but the drawing should be cheap !)
- some reviews from customers (what is it really like to crew; why they bought this design; why they are going to get another one)
- some impartial (or as impartial as they get) reviews in a RIB/ boating magazine plus a copy or link to the reviews on the manufacturers web site
- with a "different design" I would like a comparison (helming in different conditions; mainenance; ease of waterski starts; launching or recovering; ease of towing; examples of family use which make it brilliant for purpose)between for example the Thunderbolt and an equivalent monohull RIB. I need to be told why it is so good !
- I have found a small number of articles on catamaran hull design which equate a cat to a mono hull 20-30% longer - if this is true, then it would be a useful comparison for me to see that your 4.7m cat is equivalent to a 6m monohull in conditions up to a force 4 (or whatever)
- because of a sceptical audience who typically trust their lives at sea only to well proven designs, I would expect any different designs to have to work far harder to prove themselves (so you need more information on your web site than the competition)

"The boat is works very differently than a deep V hull" - I assume from Zapcat/ Thundercat videos on YouTube that it skims the surface of the water on the hijackers - but I really need a description of what is different and why that is the best thing since sliced bread for a family/ sports/ speed/ racing audience ! A response of "come and try a demonstration" is fine, but misses the initial sell to convince me in the first place.

I also suspect that the selling points to the boys (speed, 2G cornering, sharp handling in a force 5 etc) need balancing against selling points for the mothers (safe in a force 5 because of twin hulls or whatever).

"We tube the Thunderbolt with the same quality PVC as we do the Thundercat. These boats are built to last and are subjected to huge amounts of abuse as you have probably seen in the race circuits. As long as a good quality PVC is used, it is more than strong enough and the other advantage is its cost. It is less labour intensive to glue PVC and it is cheaper than Hypalon. This keeps the price of the boat down as the boat itself is very labour intensive to manufacture." - fantastic, but I can't see this very useful information on your web site !

- Do you include waterski tow points on the transom as standard (possibly a selling point that would not cost a fortune to implement) ?
- I would really like to see a drawing and or photograph of the deflated boat (I don't even know if the floorboards can be removed yet)
- I would like to see some description of the assembly/ deflation process with approximate timing for experienced users
- With an outboard trolley and some quick release bolts can I partially deflate at the end of the day and load the boat onto a large roof rack ? Or use wheels at the rear and wheel up a beach rather than having to leave at a mooring ?
- I need an idiots guide to the deck space in comparison to an equivalent sized RIB (what can I fit and where) - I think this is a huge selling point, but I can't currently see photographs of 4/6/7 people sitting with a couple of waterproof bags on the deck to work out how good.

This is meant to be a positive critique from a prospective customer who cannot find out the basic information of what makes these boats so brilliant (I'm an engineer not in sales or marketing) ! Tell me more - then put it on your website along with references to the competition so that people will then find your boats when they are looking at the small number of other manufacturers.
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Old 09 February 2007, 09:06   #14
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Originally Posted by BumbleAbout View Post
ceasar - thanks for the reply - I may be in the minority here, but I like to research a product on the internet; narrow down the list; and finally visit a small number of vendors for demonstrations before I buy. .....
Exactly the process I went through - scour the net, followed by a number of calls & the finally the leg work. It was about 3 years from the time I started looking at different designs to the time I finally made a decision (though personal economics was the main factor for that length of time).


Quote:
Originally Posted by BumbleAbout View Post

...... This is meant to be a positive critique from a prospective customer who cannot find out the basic information of what makes these boats so brilliant (I'm an engineer not in sales or marketing) !
You listed pretty much the same questions I had and things I was looking for when I visited the Gemini dealer on Vancouver Island. From some some of your previous questions, I suspected you might have had an engineering background . While I am now in professional sales, my academic background is in biomechanics/athletic injuries.

In that vein, I would not recommend a low slung cobra seat type configuration for any boat, unless it is used specifically for racing in perfectly glass calm water. Even if the hull design handles a chop amazingly well, it still is a boat, and will have it's ups and downs with the occasional hard landing. About the only thing I can think of that would be worse for your back than a low slung seat while in a chop, is standing on your head.
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Old 14 February 2007, 07:11   #15
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Ceasar Thunderbolt

Dear Bumbleabout

We here at Ceasar Marine appreciate the great lengths that many of our customers go to before deciding upon a particular product for purchase. We are a young pro-active company looking to build a reputation for quality products and are committed to building a trusted after sales customer relation program. We welcome all critique, good and bad, in continuing to improve our future business relations. We have taken your comments onboard and will be updating the Ceasar Thunderbolt section of the website in due course, with more information relating to the topics you brought up also adding clearer images and line drawings of the X Class range.

To answer some of your questions now -

Q) “Some reviews from customers (what is it really like to crew; why they bought this design; why they are going to get another one)”
A) We are looking to add a customer based community section to our website where past Ceasar owners can get together online, discuss their boating activities, and speak to Ceasar representatives regarding ownership and upkeep of their Ceasar products.

Q) “Some impartial (or as impartial as they get) reviews in a RIB/ boating magazine plus a copy or link to the reviews on the manufacturers web site
A) At this moment in time we have been concentrating our efforts on promoting the P Class range of Ceasar products. A review of the P850 can be found on many of the leading RIB Magazines in the UK, with the ‘impartial as they get’ view upheld in some cases! Unfortunately not all RIB/boating magazines are happy in providing links directly to their websites. We are working on this and feel it is important to uphold a level of transparency and to promote impartial views on all of our products. We are confident that the views expressed will always be of a positive nature.

Q) “With a "different design" I would like a comparison (helming in different conditions; maintenance; ease of water-ski starts; launching or recovering; ease of towing; examples of family use which make it brilliant for purpose) between for example the Thunderbolt and an equivalent monohull RIB. I need to be told why it is so good!”
A) We will add this kind of information to the website over the coming months. However, we can answer these kind of questions over the phone in the meantime. It could be possible to tie this information in with a case study as mentioned during your first question. If you would like to discuss further our contact details are available on our website www.ceasarmarine.com

Q) “Because of a skeptical audience who typically trust their lives at sea only to well proven designs, I would expect any different designs to have to work far harder to prove themselves (so you need more information on your web site than the competition)”
A) We here at Ceasar Marine feel strongly that the only way to fully push the sale of a product is through the customer demonstrating and testing it out for him/herself. We are never going to sell a new concept just through information itself. There has to be a balance between enticing the customer in, appealing to their sense of style and then forcing a dialogue. The fact that we are having this discussion now means we must be doing something right!

Q) “Do you include water-ski tow points on the transom as standard (possibly a selling point that would not cost a fortune to implement)?”
A) Yes we do and have now added this to the Thunderbolt text on our website. Thank you for highlighting this.

Q) “I would really like to see a drawing and or photograph of the deflated boat (I don't even know if the floorboards can be removed yet)”
A) We will be adding images of each of the deflated X Class Packages Ceasar Marine offer, and also a ‘how to’ for deflating and storing in the future. We have already added deflated Thundercat images to the website.
The floor of the Thunderbolt is constructed of marine plywood with a fiberglass outer lining. There are two floor boards joined in the centre by an aluminum strip. If the boat is deflated then these can be removed. Depending on the seating and rigging layout it is possible to fold the boat in half, lengthways for storage. To remove the cabling and electronics from the engine is a fairly lengthy job and we would not recommend doing this unless the boat was to be stored for a prolonged period.

Q) “I would like to see some description of the assembly/ deflation process with approximate timing for experienced users.”
A) See above.

Q) “With an outboard trolley and some quick release bolts can I partially deflate at the end of the day and load the boat onto a large roof rack? Or use wheels at the rear and wheel up a beach rather than having to leave at a mooring?”
A) At 5.3m the Ceasar Thunderbolt is a fairly large leisure craft with a minimum 60hp engine. We would not recommend the Ceasar Thunderbolt be transported by roof rack on any vehicle. Again, to remove the cabling and electronics from the engine is a fairly lengthy job and we would not recommend doing this unless the boat was to be stored for a prolonged period. We would recommend trailering the boat on a bunker trailer. However, due to the fact that it is lightweight you will be able to maneuver the Ceasar Thunderbolt out of the water and over a short distance on trolley wheels.


Q) “I need an idiots guide to the deck space in comparison to an equivalent sized RIB (what can I fit and where) - I think this is a huge selling point, but I can't currently see photographs of 4/6/7 people sitting with a couple of waterproof bags on the deck to work out how good.”
A) We will be updating the Thunderbolt image gallery in due course and will strive to add some images showing the ample deck space available along with some text describing possible seating arrangements.

Please feel free to call us to discuss further, details on our website. Or if you would like to arrange a demonstration we now have a dealer network throughout the UK with M.I.RIBs based in Chichester being the closest X Class dealer to Southampton. Again the contact details are available in the dealer locator section of our website.

Regards,

Ceasar
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Old 14 February 2007, 08:06   #16
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if your restricted by space why not look at a zodiac futura? they have two speed tubes under the hull which gives a kind of catamaran effect, wouldnt be ideal in rough weather, but im sure they are capable boats. you cana lso put a sizeable engine on the back which would allow you to waterski behind it. These boats i believe have PVC tubes, but there is nothing wrong with PVC, there is always an ongoing debateabout the advantages and disadvantages of each material...... I admit our boat has hypalon, but our previous boat, a zodiac had pvc and had no problems
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Old 14 February 2007, 12:58   #17
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I'm very impressed - the website (http://www.ceasarmarine.com/ceasar_thunderbolt.aspx) has been updated with lots of information about the Thunderbolt.
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Old 14 February 2007, 13:23   #18
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I should have also said that the calls and legwork phase is approaching sooner than I thought - I do like the square deck (more space) of the Thunderbolt catamaran, given the amount of kit that seems to accompany the family for the shortest of trips.
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Old 21 February 2007, 06:15   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpertski View Post
if your restricted by space why not look at a zodiac futura? they have two speed tubes under the hull which gives a kind of catamaran effect, wouldnt be ideal in rough weather, but im sure they are capable boats. you cana lso put a sizeable engine on the back which would allow you to waterski behind it. These boats i believe have PVC tubes, but there is nothing wrong with PVC, there is always an ongoing debateabout the advantages and disadvantages of each material...... I admit our boat has hypalon, but our previous boat, a zodiac had pvc and had no problems
Interesting - the Futura appears to have the inflatable keel of my present SIB with the addition of "hijackers" - so I presume it generates less lift at speed than a (Zapcat type) catamaran hull and so possibly would have a lower top speed ?

The whole thing folds down to 4'7''x2'6''x2'1'' (which is good).
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Old 21 February 2007, 06:25   #20
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And I just found a user on hotribs who has one :
"I own a Zodiac Futura with a 40hp, 2 stroke, Nissan on the back. In regards to the boats performance, it's amazing. With this much power on the smallest Futura you don't so much get up on plain as you leap out of the water. This boat is FAST. The speed tubes are fantastic for small chop but lets not get this boat confused with a RIB, you ride on the waves! It can be brutal depending on the chop. It can handle almost any conditions and I've been out in 10 ft waves before. Fun running between them but good luck trying to make any head way into them. I find I enjoy the boat most in either flat condition or raging waves. In between chop just isn't fun. In big waves you can launch this boat so far into the air you'll swear that death is just around the corner. Anyways one the most adrenaline pumping little Zodiacs I've ever owned!"

Particularly interesting quote "The speed tubes are fantastic for small chop but lets not get this boat confused with a RIB, you ride on the waves" - time to go out and try one ...
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