Cat C Rib and Weather, Channel

[brucehawsker]

It has been suggested that since a Cat C rib is for inshore use, that use in 'adverse weather conditions' or 'crossing the Channel' would invalidate any warranty?

Would love to know what people think of this?

Thx

Bruce

[beamishken]

Isnt the rating just a reccomendation I doubt the manufacturer would know youd been out in a f10 when you submit the warranty claim

[HDAV]

Originally Posted by brucehawsker

It has been suggested that since a Cat C rib is for inshore use, that use in 'adverse weather conditions' or 'crossing the Channel' would invalidate any warranty?

Would love to know what people think of this?

Thx

Bruce

Which channel? The English channel? Seems an overloaded tender is more that enough these days.....


Been covered before http://www.rib.net/forum/f8/am-i-ins...sea-40641.html

[Erin]

Is it not just a certificate of its seaworthiness based upon certain test criteria. ISTR that it is up to the manufacturer what category they wish to have their models tested to so a cat C boat might be more capable than a cat B but was never tested to that level due to cost factors.
I've never seen anything in insurance or warranty paperwork relating to cruising limitations but I suspect if you you made a claim for damage as a result of using it beyond its design limits then you might struggle a bit.

[Searider]

Category C is:

"Up to 2m significant wave height and Beaufort force 6".

The English Channel is within category C most of the time.

For any given "Significant wave height" you would expect to encounter waves of twice that height occasionally.

[gpsguru]

Originally Posted by Searider

Category C is:

"Up to 2m significant wave height and Beaufort force 6".

The English Channel is within category C most of the time.

For any given "Significant wave height" you would expect to encounter waves of twice that height occasionally.

You missed a few bits out there .......... like the 'inshore' bit

Here are the Categories

Category A - Ocean: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale)
and significant wave heights of 4m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

Category B - Offshore: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and
significant wave heights up to, and including, 4m may be experienced.

Category C - Inshore: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where
conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2m may be
experienced.

Category D - Sheltered: Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and
canals where conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0.3m
may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0.5m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.

[Searider]

Originally Posted by gpsguru

You missed a few bits out there .......... like the 'inshore' bit

Here are the Categories

Category A - Ocean: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale)
and significant wave heights of 4m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

Category B - Offshore: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and
significant wave heights up to, and including, 4m may be experienced.

Category C - Inshore: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where
conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2m may be
experienced.

Category D - Sheltered: Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and
canals where conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0.3m
may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0.5m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.

Many thanks for your less than clear comment - what do you mean lol?
There isn't unfortunately any definition as to where "Inshore" becomes "Offshore".
There is no restriction on "Distance from port or land" in the RCD.
The categories are based on sea state and wind speed.
The builder then designs and builds a boat that can withstand those conditions and proves it through the generation of the boats Technical Construction File.

Bruce - you'll be fine!

[Andy_Rs600]

Bear in mind the people that write these definitions are living in the commercial shipping / yachting world. A channel crossing would be considered "coastal" by most of the worlds yachting/shipping standards. RYA Coastal Skipper is a ticket to operate up to 60nm from shore/safehaven. "Offshore" to a RIB user might well start sooner than 60nm out, but that's not intended or even implied by the RCD criteria.

I think a manufacturer would have a hard time not honouring a warranty on the sole basis that the RCD test category of the craft supplied might, under certain interpretations, have indirectly implied you shouldn't be that for away from the shore...

[GuyC]

The Recreational Craft Directive by Peter Nicholls the steel boat builder

The link above might be useful although I can't seem to find it on their website.

I'd say if the weather in the Channel was less than a Force 6 and the significant wave height was less than 2m, you'd be operating within the parameters of Cat C. I'd also suggest that you should be within a time e.g. 3 hours of a safe refuge so if the weather starts to take a turn for the worse you can make it back to a safe haven within that time.

[Xk59D]

Is this your new engine by chance now only having a 12 month warranty due to your "friends" arrangement?

If not what warranty are your referring to?

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by GuyC

I'd also suggest that you should be within a time e.g. 3 hours of a safe refuge so if the weather starts to take a turn for the worse you can make it back to a safe haven within that time.

Time doesn't really make sense.

Most ribbers are expecting cruising speeds close to 20kts. So a 3 hour travel time is 60NM... And if that is to return to a safe haven does that mean you are doing a 120NM passage? Even the most aggressive ribbers on here doing 120NM passages are rarely 60NM from a safehaven.

If something breaks... You are of course no longer 3,hours away if 60NM away and doing 6 kts instead!...

Would I cross the channel in a Cat C rated boat? In the right conditions... Can't see why not. But the right conditions are not just the right conditions *now* but the right conditions under aux / limp home / tow from a mate at a few knots...

By that I mean... Dover - Calais is say 20NM. So I'm theory perhaps only an hour run. Probably more to allow for navigation but certainly 2 hours seems reasonable. But a tow home at 3kts from half way will take 3-4 hours, and to be half way you are already an hour in. So you need a 5 hour weather window.

Going a different route that is 50NM... The maths becomes a 3.5 hour trip. Break down halfway. Perhaps a 10 hour limp home. May need 12 hour weather window.

Would I try it with a F5 and a wave height of 1.9m... probably not! F2 and waves of 50cm... With stable forecast for next 24 hours... Seems reasonable. But I'd want a contingency plan to get home (tow, aux etc)

But none of that is a warranty issue.

If I was a manufacturer having a boat with a broken transom and I thought it had been abused ... I'd be using that argument rather than the RCD it was used in. A single trip across channel in the conditions I describe is no harder than a day on a sailing club lake. But if you are doing 30 trips a year, to. Pre planned timetable, max pax, driving hard, going on the edge of conditions. A manufacturer might question if that is due care for their craft. Just like me driving my 4*4 SUV across a field shouldn't break it. But Raleigh driving it or using it as a taxi might upset the warranty...

[willk]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

like me driving my 4*4 SUV across a field shouldn't break it. But Raleigh driving it or using it as a taxi might upset the warranty...

Driving your 4x4 on cycle paths will certainly upset the rozzers...

[GuyC]

The High Speed Craft Code uses a four hour limit to differentiate between different types of high speed craft so it is a recognised way of categorising vessels.

Short range yachts need to operate within 60 miles of a safe haven - how long it would take them to get back to a safe haven is dependent on vessel speed but at 10kts, it's obviously six hours.

I chose three hours because it would put the coast of Europe in range from the UK as I'm sure a Cat C RIB would be capable of doing that trip given the right conditions.

Interestingly the regulations tend not to expect you to have to react to more than one issue at a time so you wouldn't be expected to return to a safe haven whilst dealing with a break down.

Apologies for the thread creep.

[xpertski]

Coastal isn’t defined, but if using a boat outside the defined limits of the category I.e wave height related to a recorded Force level of wind, then that’s easier to define in the courts. Any day boating where there isn’t the requirement for overnight passage would be coastal in reality. The categories cover far larger boats with accommodation on board etc that are really capable of “offshore” voyages (less to do with capability but more to do with ability for a longer duration due to the facilities the boat has on board). The ambiguity of the word “coastal” is probably why many of you have such different potential interpretations. If there was a need to be specific then the insurance company would be sure to ask that question - if in doubt, ask them what they would define it as - probably depends on which insurance company and even potentially who you speak to at an insurance company!

[brucehawsker]

Thanks for the input. Sorry for the slow response.

No this has nothing to do with alleged commercial nor otherwise usage, Xk59D.

This is a much older issue which does not affect the transom of the boat concerned.

While not a warranty issue per se, I wondered if the defence of "its a CAT C gov, so you shouldn't have done that" could be applied to taking a Cat C across the English Channel.

If just as an example someone had taken a boat across the Channel and back on two occasions - once for example close to dead flat to Alderney, less than 3 hours there and less than 3 back hours (from Lymington). Once as a different example, to Honfleur (which perhaps took 6 hours on the way out cos of a head sea being a bit of a pain and the missus not wanting to be shaken or stirred, and 3.5 hours back) both from Gosport. Would that really be wrong for a Cat C boat?

The other comment made was that taking the boat out in the rough (specifically referencing as an example a cruise from Yarmouth to Weymouth when it got hairy despite a reasonable forecast (6 occasionally 7) off St Alban's Head), was not appropriate usage for a Cat C boat.

I find these comments surprising!!

What do people think??

[gotchiguy]

In many cases RIBs are only rated Category C because of the cost of certification. Testing to Cat B standards is much more expensive.

IIRC, Category C is simply a paper exercise whereas Cat B requires real tests and that is where the cost differential arises.

There are many Cat C RIBs produced which I would be far more confident taking "offshore", however you define it, than others which are technically rated Cat B.

[Poly]

Xpertski - coastal is not defined because that is not the terminology they use for Cat C!

[Poly]

Originally Posted by brucehawsker

I find these comments surprising!!



?

I find it surprising that you need to validate your skippering decisions retrospectively like this.

[xpertski]

Originally Posted by Poly

Xpertski - coastal is not defined because that is not the terminology they use for Cat C!

Hi Poly, thanks. Unless I am missing something, the word coastal is used in the terminology for Category C, reference the relevant directive (94/25/EC, as amended) - photo below.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by xpertski

Hi Poly, thanks. Unless I am missing something, the word coastal is used in the terminology for Category C, reference the relevant directive (94/25/EC, as amended) - photo below.


Attachment 128166

Ah sorry I thought you were suggesting it was called “COASTAL” where it is “INSHORE” yes I see that the definition of inshore does include the word coastal.