Can this be fixed?? - Page 3

BogMonster · 23 April 2006, 14:22

OK here are some pictures taken this morning of the tube on the other side.

You can see along the same zone, the fabric has a sort of "distressed" appearance to it, I reckon it is very shortly going to do the same thing in the same place on the other tube.

I shall fire all these off to Humber and see what they say about it. I was talking to somebody earlier this morning who reckoned the people supplying his boat told him they would re-tube it for free if there was a tube manufacturing defect up to 25 years old. Fingers crossed then!!!!

ribraff · 24 April 2006, 08:19

Hi Stephen

I have seen this problem on quite a few ribs which have been in for repair. The problem more than likely is that the internal seam has become hard and brittle either from a build up of glue or the fabric itself, this hard edge on the internal seam is now rubbing it's way through the outer seam during propulsion through the water. This problem occurs more in PVC tubes where the fabric is more prone to becoming brittle but it does occur in Hypalon tubes too.
Ultimately to overcome this problem will require opening the tube and replacing the internal seam.

BogMonster · 24 April 2006, 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by ribraff

Hi Stephen

I have seen this problem on quite a few ribs which have been in for repair. The problem more than likely is that the internal seam has become hard and brittle either from a build up of glue or the fabric itself, this hard edge on the internal seam is now rubbing it's way through the outer seam during propulsion through the water. This problem occurs more in PVC tubes where the fabric is more prone to becoming brittle but it does occur in Hypalon tubes too.
Ultimately to overcome this problem will require opening the tube and replacing the internal seam.

Oh b^%&%^ks. That sounds like it is only gonna get worse, and the solution proposed is way beyond my skills (or anybody else in this part of the world) I wouldn't even have a clue where to start on pulling a tube completely to bits for something like that, and I guess its the sort of job where you need a heated workshop to fit the boat in as well to make sure everything sticks properly

Now you mention it, it does sort of look like it has been folded repeatedly over a hard edge (on both tubes) and if you deflate the tube and squeeze it together it folds sharply along the line where the failure occurred, while hardly folding at all on either side of this.

I suppose slapping another layer of fabric over the top will be a stay of execution anyway, at least the seam will have to wear its way through that as well before I have to throw the boat away...

Thanks for the advice

No reply from Humber so far this morning.

BogMonster · 26 April 2006, 14:48

Ho hum

Three days pass and still I have yet to receive any acknowledgement from Humber....

can some of the tube people give me an idea of the basic technique involved in cutting the back out of the tube and putting a new one in?

I have been thinking about my options and it seems that in principle there is no reason why you couldn't just shorten the tube by three or four inches to get rid of the knackered section, i.e. chop out the bad bit, stick the end of the tube back in a little further in, and then put big wear patches underneath to stop it happening again. I just can't see how you would go about sticking a whole end in a tube - how is it done when they are made/repaired by the pro's?

otherwise plan B is just to fill the effn thing up with expanding foam and make the "R" bit a bit larger and the "I" bit a bit smaller - more than one way to skin a cat as they say!

jwalker · 26 April 2006, 15:16

The reason there is that double joint is to change the section from a cylinder to a cone without introducing darts or crinkles. You will be hard pushed to get the cone to join directly, especially a Destroyer one because the cone is so short. Just do an outside repair, fit the reinforcement underneath and keep the tubes inflated nice and hard.

BogMonster · 26 April 2006, 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwalker

The reason there is that double joint is to change the section from a cylinder to a cone without introducing darts or crinkles. You will be hard pushed to get the cone to join directly, especially a Destroyer one because the cone is so short. Just do an outside repair, fit the reinforcement underneath and keep the tubes inflated nice and hard.

Hmm yes I see what you mean, looking again the bit that is bladdered is the middle of the three bits of fabric not the main part of the tube. Teach me to have a vague idea without checking it out properly [slap self on head]

Expanding foam it is then

thanks

Tim M · 26 April 2006, 17:31

If your talking about filling the whole tube with foam you might want to consider getting a "bladder" made for it instead. Avalible from geminieindustries.com

ADS · 26 April 2006, 18:41

What ever you do DON'T fill it with expanding foam!!

BogMonster · 26 April 2006, 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADS

What ever you do DON'T fill it with expanding foam!!

It was very much a tongue in cheek comment...

But actually, why not?

It ain't gonna leak whatever you do to it
It will be completely unsinkable!
permanent - no messing around with tube pressures and stuff

The only negative might be a slightly bumpy ride plus an increase in the weight of the boat oh of course and the fact that if you put too much in there would be a colossal #kin bang and foam/tube everywhere!!!

But don't worry that will be the "last resort/massive fit of temper option" a little way off yet

quinquarimarine · 26 April 2006, 22:44

Stephen

A few thoughts

Firstly I will mention your concerns as a polite reminder when I have my call with the folks at Humber tomorrow. They are a pretty good bunch with strong moral values. I have to say, from personal observation, that on the downside a lot of shouting when the actual cause is unknown does not help.. this not as a personal rebuke to you but a fact of life.

It is fair to note.

1. The vessel is 6 years old. This may not seem a lot but has to be put against the use that the vessel has been through. You also do not detail as to what you use the boat for.
2. You have not defined the history of the vessel but one would asume that it has had regular inspections or if you bought it second hand you had a survey prior to purchase. Thus are we suggesting a rapid failure as there has been no event for 6 years ?
3. The weed growth on the tubes as in the picture can become an issue as this does attack the outer layer of the hypalon.
4. The Polymarine glue is Ok and in our experience is not quite the same as 2402 but works better in damp conditions ie. our prefernce is 2402 in good conditions but to effect "in the field repairs" Polymarine is better.
5. There needs to be empathy with your situation in being in a distant shore with lesser facilities and above what is required is a solution. I am sure this can be found.
6. Humbers have been supplied even further south that you to the Antartic Survey vessels.

If you want me to call to offer guidance or to find a solution then in the first instance feel free to e-mail.

Regards

John

www.quinquarimarine.co.uk

ian parkes · 26 April 2006, 23:23

Expanding foam soaks up salt water like a sponge at least the stuff I have come across does .
I knew a guy who filled the ends of the club kayaks with it and they all wieghed a ton after a little use and sank if they were capsized .
The stuff was near impossible to get out again .

BogMonster · 27 April 2006, 02:03

Thanks John. I'm not shouting as such because I honestly don't expect to get anything out of it, it would be a rare company in this day and age that contributed anything significant to a six year old product however little use it has had, unless maybe I was the original owner which I am not. The essence of my email to them was indicating that I believe there is a problem with the design, that the failure seemed extremely premature and if it was a known issue that I would appreciate their advice in sorting it out on the basis that they must have developed some sort of "fix" for this problem on other boats that had seen much more use than the 50 hours a year mine has seen.

There are all sorts of questions that could be asked e.g. why they use those sorts of seams when it seems from Ribraff's post to be a fairly common weakness; why they don't fit wear patches as standard when I have looked at several other RIBs since and all have them, and so on. All these things point to a slightly iffy design which is a bit odd given their 45 years experience which must surely have taught them what works and what does not, long before my RIB was built, and the additional cost of fitting those wear patches would have been peanuts in the context of what the original owner paid. But I am really not seeking to do them down as a company, far more interested in getting my boat fixed and back in the water where it belongs

In answer to your questions

1) Both myself and as far as I know the two previous owners have used the boat for leisure use only, in my case just cruising around but I have not had it very long, the others I think used it for a bit of diving but no serious or commercial type use as far as I am aware. The total hours run on the (original) motor of 303hrs in 6 years is testament to pretty light use I think, 50 hours a year or about an hour a week is not a lot and I don't know what is reasonable but I would have thought you should expect 1000 hours plus with no structural tube problems in this sort of use. A guy I know here has used a 6.0m Destroyer for 12 years in his commercial diving business with no such problems, not sure of the hours run but I am sure it will be a lot more than mine.

2) It was a rapid failure in that it developed a slow leak then went bang when I pumped it up to try and find the slow leak. Looking at the fault suggests that it has been developing for some time until it weakened the tube to the point of failure. I am fairly certain there was no slow leak when I purchased it a month or so ago and since then I have done about 15 hours. There are no facilities for getting anybody to survey it here prior to purchase, and of the two people I know that do know something about boats, one was a close friend of the person selling it and the other was trying to sell me his own boat so I am afraid that through necessity the only inspection was my own. There is no regulation at all here, of privately owned boats of this size.

3) noted - unfortunately it is a "weedy" environment in the harbour here but having said that it has been stored out of the water for most of its life I think. There are no signs of any deterioration of the fabric apart from along these seams.

4) Noted - thanks - the conditions I am going to have to repair it under are less than ideal so that is very useful to know, I will find out where this came from and order some more.

5) I am sure I can bodge it one way or another, how long it will last is perhaps a different matter, but a significant issue from my point of view is that I spent quite a bit more than I originally intended in order to get a Humber because of their good reputation for no-nonsense well designed durable boats. Despite buying a fairly lightly used example I didn't seem to end up with one!

6) I was aware of the BAS use prior to buying it as I did a bit of research into the brand before buying; it was another reason I decided to go with Humber because I figured BAS would have tried and broken anything that was not robust.

If the worst comes to the worst I already have a quote for a complete re-tube from a trade member off this forum and the cost would not kill me but I just don't think it should be necessary to do that on something this age and as my first foray into boats it would not be a happy start.

Any assistance you could give would be very very gratefully received.

Many thanks

Regards

Stephen

BogMonster · 28 April 2006, 01:01

An update on this.

Received a reply from Humber this evening, would have got it yesterday but my ISP decided for some reason that it was Spam and kindly filtered it for me... so I didn't get it till I emptied the spam bin this evening.

Having read this thread it is fair to say that they were not over impressed with some of my comments as you might expect. I guess we will have to agree to differ on the cause of failure.

Nevertheless they have very kindly agreed, without prejudice, to supply the fabric materials FOC to carry out the repairs, for which I am most grateful.

Just for the sake of clarity - earlier in the post I said they would not send me any glue. The only reason for this was the rules and regulations on posting hazardous/flammable substances internationally, which I mentioned in the same paragraph, sorry if this was not clear, nothing else was meant by my comment and I was well aware of this restriction as I import a wide range of such items as part of my "day job". I think it is probably illegal to post flammable volatiles to be shipped by air and it would certainly be irresponsible so I would not expect any supplier to do it - they will have to come by seafreight.

Fingers crossed then that I don't screw up the repair, and that there are no more similar problems waiting to erupt in a cloud of bubbles. I daresay I will post the outcome of my ham-fisted attempt at repairing it when the glue arrives in a couple of months

in the meantime I patched the holes on the weekend with what I do have here, pumped it up this evening after 5 days for the glue to cure and at the moment there are no bubbles in the Fairy Liquid

will chuck the boat in the water at the weekend (w.p.) and see if anything else goes pop

Thanks once again to everybody who contributed to this thread and to Humber for agreeing to supply the materials to effect what will hopefully be a long term repair. I can see I am gonna have to contribute some £ to RIBnet for this one

Biggles · 28 April 2006, 01:40

Sounds like Humber came up trumps on this one.

Might be a first because they get seem to get quite a lot of bad press for support.

Lets hope they've changed.

Rodan · 28 April 2006, 09:18

I have found them helpful..

If you want to sent nasty stuff by air like glue speak to Zippy who posts on here - resident DG expert!

BogMonster · 28 April 2006, 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodan

I have found them helpful..

If you want to sent nasty stuff by air like glue speak to Zippy who posts on here - resident DG expert!

I may be able to blag some on a replacement basis, kinda hoping so anyway.

I think the 250ml tin of the Polymarine stuff I had, said it should have a coverage of 2 sq metres, so times 2 coats makes that 1 sq metre, add a "woops" factor to cut that in half and I guess I should look for about four tins to be on the safe side.

Big problem with DG to this part of the world is that all incoming air freight/post services are on passenger flights. They will carry stuff but it has to be in all the right containers, and there has to be a very important need. I doubt the RAF would regard fixing a hole in my boat as a high priority

No matter anyway, it is approaching winter time, as long as I have it fixed by about September I will be happy

jyasaki · 28 April 2006, 17:53

Falklands are near Argentina, are they not? As I recall, there are a couple (few?) inflatable companies operating out of there; maybe you could score some supplies from them? Gotta be cheaper (and faster) than shipping from the UK?

jky

BogMonster · 28 April 2006, 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by jyasaki

Falklands are near Argentina, are they not? As I recall, there are a couple (few?) inflatable companies operating out of there; maybe you could score some supplies from them? Gotta be cheaper (and faster) than shipping from the UK?

jky

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees

historical reasons mean we don't have a lot of contact with that lot over there though!!!

ian parkes · 28 April 2006, 18:57

Just an idea . I was given some glue by a local company here that services liferafts . I believe the glue was part of the survival kit aboard the liferaft and was replaced to keep it all in date . I was also given flares and first aid kits with short dates .

BogMonster · 28 April 2006, 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ian parkes

Just an idea . I was given some glue by a local company here that services liferafts . I believe the glue was part of the survival kit aboard the liferaft and was replaced to keep it all in date . I was also given flares and first aid kits with short dates .

Thanks for the idea, but the company I work for has liferafts for the motor launches, and they have to go to South America to be serviced.

I have no problem getting some, I'll just have to wait for a while. True of most things in this part of the world, a bad place to be in a hurry to get anything!