Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 
Old 19 February 2009, 06:09   #21
Member
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Make: HumberOceanOffshore
Length: 8m +
Engine: Volvo KAD300/DPX
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by codprawn View Post
Dare I mention freezer bags again???
Well, I tried them out. Thought I'd best do it on dry land first so talked to me dad through the bag. He could hear fek all for the rustling of the bag. He said I was unitelligible and he couldn't understand a thing I was saying because of the rustling and the muffled speech. I tried clingfilm too - it was equally bad.

No, I wasn't pished at the time.
__________________

__________________
JW.
jwalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 February 2009, 07:04   #22
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Dorset & Hants
Boat name: Streaker/Orange
Make: Avon/Ribcraft
Length: 4m +
Engine: 50Yam/25 Mariner
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,551
Having read the full report I reckon that a lot of things that were not 100% led to the ultimate problem . Isn't this called sods law ? Ie not greatly experianced helm , not ideal weather , passengers not held in greatly - no comms between boats - use of private channel , getting late / dark by the time eventual rescue came on scene.

Intersting that an unconnected ' large RIB' gave assistance - lots of credit to whoever that was - hopefully somehting we woudl all do , but never have to.

Even relatively small breaking waves can flip a resonable sized boat fro the stern.

I'm not thinking should I set up my Anchor so it drops out if I flip the boat - so it automatically deploys ?
__________________

__________________
PeterM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 February 2009, 07:24   #23
RIBnet admin team
 
Nos4r2's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: The wilds of Wiltshire
Boat name: WhiteNoise/Dominator
Make: Ballistic 7.8/SR5.4
Length: 7m +
Engine: Opti 225/Yam 85
MMSI: 235090687/235055163
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,645
RIBase
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackroady View Post
Having read the full report I reckon that a lot of things that were not 100% led to the ultimate problem . Isn't this called sods law ? Ie not greatly experianced helm , not ideal weather , passengers not held in greatly - no comms between boats - use of private channel , getting late / dark by the time eventual rescue came on scene.
Divers call this the Incident Pit. It's a good name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by From someone's online blog
The incident pit is a concept I first read about in one of my mums diving magazines. At that time I realised how useful it is in describing incidents involving divers and how a lot of small things going wrong can result in a major incident.

In essence, the incident pit is something that you gradually fall into. One small thing might not initially go to plan or a relatively minor piece of equipment might break down or get left at home; when this happens you have put your first foot into the incident pit. Initially it is not a problem, but then something else goes wrong - that is another step into the pit. The challenge with the incident pit is that with each step, not only do you get closer and closer to the bottom of the pit and a serious incident, but with each step the sides of the pit get steeper and steeper. It gets more and more difficult to get out the further into the pit you go.
__________________
Need spares,consoles,consumables,hire,training or even a new boat?

Please click HERE and HERE and support our Trade Members.

Join up as a Trade member or Supporter HERE
Nos4r2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 February 2009, 07:44   #24
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Dorset & Hants
Boat name: Streaker/Orange
Make: Avon/Ribcraft
Length: 4m +
Engine: 50Yam/25 Mariner
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,551
Indeed - something I have heard reffed to as a 'failiure triangle' or 'cascade of errors' - lots of little things give rise to one big one.

PS _ I cant type - I am NOW thinking of setting up achor etc to deploy if I fip the boat ( NOT - NOT)
__________________
PeterM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 February 2009, 09:21   #25
Member
 
Country: UK - Wales
Town: swansea
Boat name: Too Blue
Make: BLANK
Length: 8m +
Engine: Suzuki DT225
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,791
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwalker View Post
Well, I tried them out. Thought I'd best do it on dry land first so talked to me dad through the bag. He could hear fek all for the rustling of the bag. He said I was unitelligible and he couldn't understand a thing I was saying because of the rustling and the muffled speech. I tried clingfilm too - it was equally bad.

No, I wasn't pished at the time.

well i have tried mine out and they have been fine - I suppose mobile phone mikes vary quite a bit - maybe they should carry freezer bag compatible logos.....
__________________
codprawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 February 2009, 09:28   #26
Member
 
Country: UK - Wales
Town: swansea
Boat name: Too Blue
Make: BLANK
Length: 8m +
Engine: Suzuki DT225
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,791
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polwart View Post

I thought you might have had something to say about the recommendations to consider 150N inflatable l/js for similar activities in the future? I think the realities of the situation are that 50N bouyancy aids still would be the preferred solution if i was running a centre for "kids" esp. if operating multiple boats together like this (reducing risk). "Tamper free", and lower cost to maintain (presumably no "formal" inspection required, no costs from inquisitive youngsters playing, no costs every time someone gets one wet getting out at the beach), permanent bouyancy so no risk it doesn't go off, and probably reduced risk of entrapment under the boat. And both before and following any dunking - better insulation. I also think its easier to get good fitting bouyancy aids for children/teenagers than lifejackets unless you go with crotch strap - and thats not going to happen (or happen effectively) with a bunch of teenagers.
Good point I missed that bit!!!

I totally agree with you. They also offer some impact resistance.

It is interesting to see that a few of them were trapped under the RIB but then managed to swim out. I wonder if that would have been so easy with a 150N jacket full of air? Of course you can always release the air but would they have had the prescence of mind to do so?

It is interesting to note that the Norwegian Fjord rafting people do not issue lifejackets but floatation/survival suits - cold being a far bigger problem.
__________________
codprawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 February 2009, 09:44   #27
Member
 
Country: UK - Wales
Town: swansea
Boat name: Too Blue
Make: BLANK
Length: 8m +
Engine: Suzuki DT225
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,791
It also mentioned in the report the difficulty people had clinging to the upturned boat. Again Shaun White had thought of this and his boats were fitted with a grab rope under the tubes. A great man and probably the pioneer of RIB thrill rides.

He was often criticised for having passengers sitting on the tubes with no seats but they did have a massive grab rail in the centre of the boat. I fully agree with him.
__________________
codprawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20 February 2009, 04:08   #28
Member
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Boat name: Wildheart
Make: Humber/Delta Seasafe
Length: 5m +
Engine: Merc 60 Clamshell
MMSI: 235068449
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackroady View Post
I am NOW thinking of setting up achor etc to deploy if I fip the boat
I'm going to ask the inevitable question here - how do you plan to do this without the risk of meeting it on the way past in another scenario? Or, to rephrase the Q, How would you fix it down for "normal" use and still make it "let go" when upside down?

I ask this as a genuine question and not as an attack on the idea, because I like the idea, I ask because I vividly remember many moons ago on an Avon W500 (bl**dy big SIB) with a leaky keel the 20Kg CQR was kept in a bread tray up at the bow. As it stuffed a partucularly steep wave surfing back on a huge swell, thankfully we were all lined up down the toobs because as it stuffed, the bow folded because the keel was at low pressure, the CQR was thrown backwards and sailed down the middle of the boat at about head height, just clearing the engine as it went over the transom. My anchor has been properly secured ever since!

If nothing else this is a good example of a lot of small seemingly irrelevant & unconnected things adding together to result in a disaster. Thankfully in this case it "only" became a near miss.

As a possible reason not to have an auto sdeplying anchor, having had my foot wrapped in a dinghy mainsheet during a capsise, does an "auto deploying anchor" run the risk of finding the crew member who was thrown forward as it drops?
__________________
9D280 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20 February 2009, 05:32   #29
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Dorset & Hants
Boat name: Streaker/Orange
Make: Avon/Ribcraft
Length: 4m +
Engine: 50Yam/25 Mariner
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9D280 View Post
I'm going to ask the inevitable question here - how do you plan to do this without the risk of meeting it on the way past in another scenario? Or, to rephrase the Q, How would you fix it down for "normal" use and still make it "let go" when upside down?

I ask this as a genuine question and not as an attack on the idea, because I like the idea, I ask because I vividly remember many moons ago on an Avon W500 (bl**dy big SIB) with a leaky keel the 20Kg CQR was kept in a bread tray up at the bow. As it stuffed a partucularly steep wave surfing back on a huge swell, thankfully we were all lined up down the toobs because as it stuffed, the bow folded because the keel was at low pressure, the CQR was thrown backwards and sailed down the middle of the boat at about head height, just clearing the engine as it went over the transom. My anchor has been properly secured ever since!

If nothing else this is a good example of a lot of small seemingly irrelevant & unconnected things adding together to result in a disaster. Thankfully in this case it "only" became a near miss.

As a possible reason not to have an auto sdeplying anchor, having had my foot wrapped in a dinghy mainsheet during a capsise, does an "auto deploying anchor" run the risk of finding the crew member who was thrown forward as it drops?
Good point & example of what can happen if things aren't quite right. I guess you can argue you might not want the anchor to auto deply as it may anchor the boat in an area of rough water that you may otherwise drift clear of ?

I think the only way to rig it would be in some kind of locker with a secure enough cover that it wont pop off unless you have the full weight of anchor & chain on it from inside? You'd hope in a RIb you wont fold back the hull lke the SIB experiance you have had & possibly if it was really worthwhile / beneficial it would happen/ exisit already on the RNLI type RIBs / rescue boats ?
__________________
PeterM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20 February 2009, 08:31   #30
Member
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Boat name: Wildheart
Make: Humber/Delta Seasafe
Length: 5m +
Engine: Merc 60 Clamshell
MMSI: 235068449
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,610
Agreed, if your rib folds like that you've got bigger problems than whether you stay in position or not, and as you(?) said earlier maty stop you drifting onto a rocky lee shore....

I was using it as a real life example of why anchors should be stowed properly, and how you need to fully appraise all possible outcomes of a system that could literally take someone down with them.

Another example on a slightly less extreme level - I decided not to bother about a backup battery because I can pull start my engine, I have a handheld VHF in the seat, when I finally get round to wiring in the GPS72 if the main batt fails it switches to it's internal battery.... etc etc. On a different boat with an engine that needs a battery just to keep the engine alive, I'd have a spare with all the aux charging etc that goes with it.....
__________________

__________________
9D280 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 15:14.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.