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Old 12 July 2008, 07:25   #11
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Originally Posted by Top banana View Post
Which makes you think did the other two vesells from plas menai that were allso on excersise first contact plas menai about the incident before contacting the coast guard, wasting valuable time.
OK good to see no one is jumping to conclusions with out most of the facts

there are several valid reasons why you would use a mobile rather than a VHF e.g.

* poor vhf reception
* CH16 busy
* radios busy between boats confirming all casualties retrieved/ok
* available responsble person not close to vhf when boat is busy with casualties and skipper is trying to retrieve people from water etc

original call wasn't a distress call as such - rather a "we've buggered up, everyone is OK, but can we get the lifeboat anyway" then the casualty deteriorated, as a result the chopper was used possibly - a precautionary over reaction since the media reported that the boy was back at plas menai the next day.
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Old 12 July 2008, 07:34   #12
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Hmm...

As far as I know, Plas Menai's RIBS are not coded - operating under the RYA 'exemption' (or whatever it's called).

Surely that means that if the boats were running under these regs, then they should be using the RYA instructor/student ratios - 6/1 or 3/1, not 7 or 8/1.

When my RIB was coded, I had to have seats for all passengers - last time I saw Plas' RIBS they didn't have seats for more than 4.

It will be interesting to see what the MAIB come up with - and what they decide the boats were being used for. RYA activities (too many students) or commercial activity when not coded.

D...
I'm not an RYA instructor so don't know how the rules are applied.

- do the rules apply to number of instructors per boat or just to the course overall (i.e. can they be left onshore)?
-do the rules apply only to "syllabused" courses (i.e. for general training/coaching are the same ratios applied)? e.g. I'm not sure many sailing clubs work these rules for normal training rather than courses.
- could these boats have been local authority coded rather than MCA coded?

whilst the MAIB report will be interesting it will probably make bizzare observations like "the students were all wearing bouyancy aids - this is innapropriate for use outside sheltered waters" and "had the boats been MCA Coded they would have been required to carry Liferafts" and other bizzare comments that really have little to do with the cause of the incident or preventing its recurrance.
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Old 12 July 2008, 13:23   #13
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[QUOTE=Polwart;256173] OK good to see no one is jumping to conclusions with out most of the facts

there are several valid reasons why you would use a mobile rather than a VHF e.g.

* poor vhf reception
* CH16 busy
* radios busy between boats confirming all casualties retrieved/ok
* available responsble person not close to vhf when boat is busy with casualties and skipper is trying to retrieve people from water etc

I know the weather is appalling most of the time in scotland,which is why we abandoned our rescent trip, but you really must get out more. or move onto
some other reading material instead of vhf afloat.

I find jumping to conclusions, saves so much time.

I wonder if they had there mobiles safelly stored in a freezer bag.
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Old 14 July 2008, 15:45   #14
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**Don't shoot**

I've just got back from volunteering at an outdoor activity and sailing centre for the last 10 days. We regularly carry 8 or 10 people on a RIB depending on the number that the boat is rated for (sitting on the tubes). The RYA are happy with this. We always have a crew member on board besides helmsman and the rule is that the passengers must hold onto something metal in the boat (ie grab handles). I'm guessing that Plas Menai will be doing similar.

In my experience, Plas Menai staff are experienced and know the local waters well although maybe they should have gone up the straits rather than out over the bar. It's easy to sit and judge.
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Old 18 February 2009, 18:28   #15
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MAIB have just released the report:

http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/...enai_rib_6.cfm

Haven't read it all yet - but the synopsis seems to blame Human Error/Judgement?
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Old 18 February 2009, 18:57   #16
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Can be a bad stretch of water. Once described as the most dangerous in the world. But that was well before it was marked out.
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Old 18 February 2009, 21:40   #17
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Originally Posted by Polwart View Post
MAIB have just released the report:

http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/...enai_rib_6.cfm

Haven't read it all yet - but the synopsis seems to blame Human Error/Judgement?
Yup an inexperienced instructor who had all the right bits of paper - experience seems to count for nothing.....

She slowed too much when turning and a wave caught up behind and slewed them around. The fact she was standing to the side of the console probably didn't help much either.

These reports should always be essential reading - learn by OTHER people's mistakes!!!

The late great Shaun White always insisted on his passengers sitting on the tubes and wearing white water style helmets - the one time they had a capsize it paid dividends - people were thrown clear of a very heavy RIB and no injuries.
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Old 18 February 2009, 23:16   #18
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It also mentions in the report that although many people were carrying mobile phones "none were suitably waterproofed". Dare I mention freezer bags again???
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Old 19 February 2009, 04:43   #19
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Yup an inexperienced instructor who had all the right bits of paper - experience seems to count for nothing.....
the phrase instructor may be misleading - she was not a PB instructor. The error was not really that she was inexperienced (she was perfectly competent for the original task) it was the change of plan without taking that into account - and without keeping her under closer supervision.

Actually - the actions of the two more experienced instructors in how they chose to respond to the unfolding events was probably more concerning. Perhaps there was a degree of the opposite - these guys have been doing it for ever - we don't need to worry about ensuring they are trained what to do if the preverbial hits the fan.
[/quote]
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It also mentions in the report that although many people were carrying mobile phones "none were suitably waterproofed". Dare I mention freezer bags again???
I thought of you when I read that bit

I thought you might have had something to say about the recommendations to consider 150N inflatable l/js for similar activities in the future? I think the realities of the situation are that 50N bouyancy aids still would be the preferred solution if i was running a centre for "kids" esp. if operating multiple boats together like this (reducing risk). "Tamper free", and lower cost to maintain (presumably no "formal" inspection required, no costs from inquisitive youngsters playing, no costs every time someone gets one wet getting out at the beach), permanent bouyancy so no risk it doesn't go off, and probably reduced risk of entrapment under the boat. And both before and following any dunking - better insulation. I also think its easier to get good fitting bouyancy aids for children/teenagers than lifejackets unless you go with crotch strap - and thats not going to happen (or happen effectively) with a bunch of teenagers.
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Old 19 February 2009, 05:55   #20
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It also mentions in the report that although many people were carrying mobile phones "none were suitably waterproofed". Dare I mention freezer bags again???
To quote from Vincent by Don Maclean 'perhaps they'l listen now..la la la'


As for the white water helmets i've long been a fan of using them before hearing about Shaun White using them
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