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Old 23 August 2002, 17:44   #31
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Mike

I understood that cruising with BIBOA meant that you had to have Insurance - must have got that wrong!

Underwriting your own losses is fine - but have you considered that you could damage someone elses boat - accidents happen.

At the SOC weekend there were a lot of boats in a small area - if you had damaged another boat would you pay to have it repaired?

Personally I have also travelled many sea miles, in all forms of craft, and insurance is something I would never be without when in my own boat.

As for the ICC, the French seem to manage to check ours regularly, so some form of control would be possible.

2 examples:

Portmouth Harbour Slipway - has a man on duty representing QHM in the office from around 0730 to 1800 (ish) most days. He could easily check certificates.

North Wales - on all beaches / slipways you need to either see the Harbourmaster, or the local Marina owners. These ask for insurance - they could also ask for ICC or similar.

Even if checks were only a once in blue moon thing, it would make people think twice if the regulations were that you took a test to drive a boat.

It has been mentioned previously, you would not go and buy a powerful Motorcycle and drive it without a test / training - boats can be just as dangerous - and it is the messge we are sending out - buy a boat - no tests, no rules - how responsible is that!
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Old 23 August 2002, 18:15   #32
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I wouldn't even like to take my little dinghy out on the water without insurance. I have a policy that provides up to 2m 3rd party indemnity cover. The worst that could happen is that the propellor hurts, or god forbid kills, a swimmer. So Mike, I assume that you keep 2million in the bank to to underwrite your own risks?

I think that enforcement and regulation are two different things like Matt says. Look at the French approach - ICC mandatory, (insurance mandatory?), but I've never seen anyone checking this. Look at Carteret Marina - no security fence, walk off the pontoon, onto the public car park, or into the yacht club facilities without a pass key or coded doors. It's a different attitude, Ok there's more rules, but a much more law abiding ethos.

I've enjoyed all the training I've done, I get more out of my pastime, and my insurance policy costs me peanuts in comparison to even the modest value of my little boat.
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Old 23 August 2002, 19:02   #33
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Let go to the real world. I never see a harbourmaster or beach warden or whatever where I launch and long may that continue.
The unruly elemnt do not care about anyone but themselves so if you think they are going to bother insuring their boat they picked up in some wheeler dealer arrangement somewhere you are in a fluffy little world way away from the real one - so needing a cert to get cover won't worry them.
But more to the point unenforceable law is as I said on keith's poll thread bad law. It only observed by the people who would never be a problem -and ignored by the idiots. I have been involved in law enforcement for more years than anyone deserves to be - and if you think some beach warden is going to get an answer let alone a proper name and address from a crowd of yobs on a beach without the benefit of the power of arrest or the ability to body check details on the police computer you really are out of touch with the culture in which we live. - and risk assesments would have no officer put in that position on his own. If you do get a name etc someone had better train the beach warden in police and criminal evidence interview procedures and human rights act matters if you are going to stand a snowballs chance in hell at court - cos thats what we are talking about, if the person does not obey the rules society sees fit to impose the sanction is that he is prosecuted. Oh and you had better pay him a sight more than he's getting now to do it too. Been there-done that, it ain't nice and its not the job of a beach guard or the coastguard who is there to be the friendly life saver - not the enforcer.
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Old 24 August 2002, 02:17   #34
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Hi, me again

Quote:
How many serious crimes go unsolved? Loads.
Er, not quite right there.

The detection rate for major crime such as murder is actualy very high (about 97% for murder). It is the minor crime that goes unsolved. Why? Money. There is not the time or money or manpower to throw what it requires to solve the average burglary or theft. It is also said that the majority of petty crime never gets reported.

Major crime gets solved (well most of it) because as in the case of a murder there is a dedicated incident room with a team of detectives and socos working on it full time with a huge forensic budget.

I'm commiting an offence right now. I've got a vhf marine radio and I havent got a licence (my daughter Karen has though). Who the heck is going to stop me and check? I don't know of anyone with a boat up by my house in Scotland who has one (a licence for the radio that is).

The nearest harbourmaster is in Inverness. I can't see him poping out to to a bit of pandaboat patrol.

By the way as mentioned in a previous reply of mine, the B*****D who murdered the old lady got life in prisonment yesterday.

Keith (will this thread get as big as my soc one) Hart
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Old 24 August 2002, 02:42   #35
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Dave

If I may make so bold I think you are missing the main point.

Of course there will always be the unruly element who will ignore any law - as I have said previously just look at Car Tax - were you have to display a sticker for all to see and yet a huge number of people ignore this. If you have ever been involved in an accident with one o thee people you will know ho awkward that can be - as their insurance - if they have any - is also invalid.

The peoplewe shold be really looking after - by offerng them training to ensure they get the most out of their boats, are the average people who go ad buy their bayliner/Avon/Fletcher whatever, then hal an hour later are stuck in some bay tryng to tow a water skier or give the kids a good time at maximum revs.

By bringing in licensing you say to these people that this type of recreation is fun - but there are things you need to know first.

We all know RYA Level 1 and 2 courses dont necessarily make first rate boat handlers over night, but at least they cover the safety and basics - making people at least think about what they are doing.

As for who would check this - this could be done on an ad hoc basis - after all how many times does the average driver have their licesne checke by the Police - usually only when they have done something wrong - or the Annual Christmas Police Fund Raising events when mobile speed cameras seem to be everywhere!

Checking and enforcement are not the core issue here - safety and enjoyment for all are what counts.
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Old 24 August 2002, 03:55   #36
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Interesting polarity developing here.

Seems to me that Keith, Dave and I, all with present or past involvement in law enforcment, are against the introduction of yet more laws to be enforced. I wonder why? I believe it may have something to do with realism versus idealism.

Three small points before I pipe down on this subject...

1 120,000 members of the public try to improve their boating skills by doing RYA courses each year. They do so without being made to by law.

2 All newcomers to a liesure pusuit are novices who are less safe than old hands. That is a fact of life. If their interest develops they will want to improve their skills and, sensibly many will do so. Most that don't but are otherwise more or less law-abiding citizens will get bored and move on to other interests.

3 As the pro-law making lobby agrees, the reckless and the yobs will snub their noses at the new laws. It will be no safer on the water after we are all covered in yet more red tape.

That's all from me on this subject. As they say, I'm outta here....

Oh, one final point. On the subject of insurance....

To make my point, I exagerated. But Keith is right about adventurers like Alan Priddy not setting off round the world if, like road users, they were made to have insurance.

On my first long voyage in 1980, even if I could have afforded it, no one would underwrite me. I had no qualifications or experience to speak of. On my last in 1997 I was quoted 33,000 a year. I chose to take the risk and go without it. It was either that or forget the whole thing.

Cheers....
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Old 24 August 2002, 04:44   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Garside
I was quoted 33,000 a year

Mike, what did the quoted 33,000 premium cover you for? My point is that 3rd party liability insurance for EEC use (usual limitations of geographical areas, etc...) is cheap. I guess that you were looking for rather wider cover, and did that cover you for salvage/rescue?

Anyway, no-one's mentioned (yet!) about UK rescue services being free...
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Old 24 August 2002, 04:59   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Garside
As the pro-law making lobby agrees, the reckless and the yobs will snub their noses at the new laws
I'm not convinced - the lack of law, no I mean the lack of compulsory registration, training and insurance for open waters just gives out the message that these issues don't matter and that there isn't any law. Government uses law to encourage a certain type of behaviour - as in the case of compulsory wearing of seat belts in cars. There ARE laws covering the sea, and even more covering sheltered waters (like Salcombe harbour where insurance and registration is compulsory for all resident and all visiting craft), it's just that you don't HAVE to have studied or understood them before using a public access point like a slipway.

So, why should a boat, which may cause damage to other property or people, be treated in a different manner from motor vehicles? If you use a boat on the non-tidal Thames, you're also faced with something a bit like an MOT...
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Old 24 August 2002, 06:01   #39
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Compulsion.

I'm with you Keith. For those who voted for compulsor registration I say this. Look at the motorcycle world. Heavy regulation on training and the costs have gone through the roof!! I know, I used to be an instructor for 14 years. Also a 125cc machine with a 17 year old rider will cost anything up to 2000 to insure. Don't believe me? Try asking for a quote. As you can see RIB insurance on the whole is "Cheap" at the moment. So I say "Think again" before deciding on comulsion.
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Old 24 August 2002, 07:04   #40
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Keith, you're right about me being wrong, I of course exaggerated when I said "major crime". But as you have said, a lot of "minor" crime (which is anything buy minor to the people it happens to) does go unsolved. So that would suggest that for a large part, they are unenforcable laws. But that doesn't mean stuff like theft should be made legal. As others have said, a lot of people don't have tax for their cars, and get away with it. Doesn't mean road tax should be made optional. Personally, I believe that TRAINING is all that should be REQUIRED. Some form of licence that has to be shown when purchasing a boat, or launching from a manned slip. I say leave stuff like insurance as optional, although it would be a damn good idea to have it, but don't force it on people. And as I've said before, don't force personal safety equipment on to people, if they don't want to wear a lifejacket, it's their choice, and they won't be hating anybody but themselves when they drown.

And as most have said, there will still be a MINORITY of trouble causers who will manage to get past any measures put in place, but that's the case with pretty much everything.

Back to the SoC issue, the only thing in this discussion I could see preventing that would be the introduction of mandatory insurance. It would be an extra cost, and as we've seen, it was a challenge for them on the funds they had anyway. But if it was brought in, then basic insurance for whilst their in British waters won't be a huge cost, and does provide that bit of backup for if something goes terribly wrong as they set off or return.

Just my opinions on the matter, if you wish totally ignore em, I am only 17 so what do I bloody know?

Matt
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