Boat Co-ownership

[SteveHall]

Looked at the site.. and my tubes feel deflated

[Poly]

You'll find what you are looking for here: http://www.rib.net/forum/f31/ribnet-...ers-18835.html

[Deflated tubes]

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[Deflated tubes]

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[bigjarv]

All paid and once again apologies! I didn't mean to insult anyone, rather add to the conversation.

So to explain properly and legitimately(!) about what Indulgeon does...

It's a site dedicated to shared ownership, originally aimed at the general aviation where sharing is common due to the expense of the assets and running costs. It's not too dissimilar to the marine world. By sharing with just one other person, everything is half price, less with more members. Purchase price, running costs, maintenance, depreciation everything. The catch.... You have to share!

I've read this thread carefully and I think we answer and solve all the problems that have been discussed which is why I felt it relevant.

We help set up clear legal agreements specific to your group with a specialist solicitor who shares an aircraft himself. The experience then becomes more like a business agreement between members rather than a gentleman's agreement.

As part of this, the solicitor will help form a company for you, ownership is then passed into the company and each co-owner becomes a shareholder in the company. This protects everyone legally and financially.

We then provide you with a calendar with customisable rules within which each member makes bookings. It replicates whole ownership. More on that here

Indulgeon Plus - YouTube

. No arguments and no double bookings.

It tracks people's use so people pay for what they use and automatically bills them accordingly. All the finances can be run through Indulgeon which keeps everything open and honest.

Maintenance reminders can be set and placed into the calendar as necessary.

Communication can be done through Indulgeon's messaging system which works just like Facebook.

To find out more about the whole thing, have a read through the pages here and watch the videos. http://www.indulgeon/Discover

Indulgeon does not own any assets and we aren't a management company. We try to offer specialist advice on best practice and all the tools you need to run a successful shared group. Whats more, the basic tools are free. As I said, this is all based on extensive experience in the aviation world where this kind of ownership is embraced and common.

I would sincerely welcome anyones thoughts on what we have created in terms of the site and the concept. Of course if anyone would like more details please don't hesitate to get in touch! We just want to make this fantastic pleasure available to more people by making it more affordable.

[HUMBER P4VWL]

To be fair, Many sites don't require trade subscription, and who reads the small print anyway, but you've acknowledged it once flagged and paid. Fair cop. Crack on and I hope can add value to the site.

[jumpinjack]

If the boat is owned by the company- is any boat usage then classed as a 'leisure' activity, or is it a 'commercial enterprise'.
May not sound an important difference but it is. On the upside,could you buy fuel at trade prices..... On the down side, do you insure as a commercial craft and does the vessel need to be coded and certified as it's not a private craft, but a commercial craft. Subtle, but very important?

[ShinyShoe]

How does indulgeon make its money then? Do you take a cut of something if not the asset?

[bigjarv]

The solicitor will run through all the implications but our understanding is, as the asset is not being used for reward or any commercial operation, it is not a commercial enterprise so does not need to be coded. You can set up a Limited Liability Partnership which is the same type of company not for profit organisations use (such as charities). As you have rightly spotted, there are however advantages to being "commercial" so the choice is yours based on what benefits you most.

In answer to where Indulgeon makes it's money... The basic booking and calendar functionality is free. All we charge for is the "Pro" features such as the finance stuff. For that we charge the princely sum of £2 per member per month. If you need it it's available. We just want to be THE community for shared ownership. There are obviously other areas we can make money to keep us ticking over but from a user point of view it is either free or very low cost.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by HUMBER P4VWL

To be fair, Many sites don't require trade subscription, and who reads the small print anyway, but you've acknowledged it once flagged and paid. Fair cop. Crack on and I hope can add value to the site.

He's not the first person to post a trade post, either in error or the hope of going unnoticed. I expect anyone posting with commercial motives to be switched on enough to social media etiquette that they would be aware that some sites don't accept trade posts and look for the rules (hint see bottom of page). Its not unusual thought and "he's done the the right thing" now.

However, trying a blatant advert is naughty - but posting "astroturf" is not not just commercially naive it is also potentially illegal (The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, Regulation 3(4)(d) - Schedule 1, Para 22)

Originally Posted by jumpinjack

If the boat is owned by the company- is any boat usage then classed as a 'leisure' activity, or is it a 'commercial enterprise'.
May not sound an important difference but it is. On the upside,could you buy fuel at trade prices..... On the down side, do you insure as a commercial craft and does the vessel need to be coded and certified as it's not a private craft, but a commercial craft. Subtle, but very important?

Coding does not apply to vessels owned by companies IF they are only used by the officers or employees of the company on a 'free voyage'.

[bigjarv]

And I can only apologise. I only posted as I thought it was pertinent to the thread and was seeking feedback. I have not read the rules, which is my fault and I do not make a habit of this. Again, I apologise.

[jumpinjack]

Originally Posted by Poly

He's not the first person to post a trade post, either in error or the hope of going unnoticed. I expect anyone posting with commercial motives to be switched on enough to social media etiquette that they would be aware that some sites don't accept trade posts and look for the rules (hint see bottom of page). Its not unusual thought and "he's done the the right thing" now.

However, trying a blatant advert is naughty - but posting "astroturf" is not not just commercially naive it is also potentially illegal (The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, Regulation 3(4)(d) - Schedule 1, Para 22)

Coding does not apply to vessels owned by companies IF they are only used by the officers or employees of the company on a 'free voyage'.

Cheers Poly, yip SI 2771 quite clear. A body corporate may own a non coded vessel as long as it is only used for sport or pleasure by employees or officers if the company or their immediate family or friends. Sounds quite a good plan then.

[bigjarv]

The link I placed to Indulgeon in my previous message is not quite right so just to update it....

http://www.indulgeon.com/Discover

[Ribbed41Pleasure]

As much as I have been a big doubter of bigjarv's plans and ideas, I have to vouch for this guys genuine idea and motives.

I used to work with this guy for a common employer and bigjarv used to pick my brains on his 'idea' of indulgeon because I had some experience of the marine world and a definite bad experience of a boat sharing scheme and also a private share of a boat personally.

Needless to say I was very negative about the whole idea as I felt sharing was a bad idea for all the experiences I had come across.

I still believe that sharing a boat is a risky game as boats are either a personal object or a play thing of no real material value . . . depending on which way you look at it.

Interesting people have mentioned the MCA as I did warn bigjarv that they would crawl all over the idea once out. Knowing how keen they were on a certain rib 'beaching' a few years ago in Stokes bay and then their 'interest' in Ribshack Marine Ltd (Since gone bust). The latter in my experience being an example of how not to run a shared ownership come management (cockup) scheme.

I will give it to bigjarv and the indulgeon team, every negative and hurdle I have thrown at them as a possible flaw in their plan, they have gone away, done the research and either proved me wrong or come up with an alternative idea to solve the problem. Fair play to them.

I do not for one moment think they are the perfect share scheme as I do not believe there is such a thing as the perfect share. I will watch their progress with avid interest as I got stung by a share/management company and frankly have been very anti the idea from the outset. But I think bigjarv maybe about to prove me wrong....

A dodgy start to the picky forum world of ribnet and the small world of leisure marine. This idea was not actually purely designed for watercraft sharing, but anything. And this is where they may be good, they have no real experience of the marine world so may not be dogged down with years of experience and the usual doubters like me. Same in the aviation world, which we both have extensive experience, most people in aviation will say, you can't do that 'cos of x y and z. It take the balls of someone outside to come in and go just do it anyway and move or remove the obstacles.

Before I get shot down for being some hired supporter I am just an old colleague, who used to take bigjarv out boating until he changed jobs and left the area. I still am not convinced because of my negative experiences, but he may have an idea worth trying. All I can say is he and the team are doing this as a side line to their full time jobs. And they are all genuine people. I think it has been three years in the making . . if not more.