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Old 20 October 2004, 19:43   #1
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Aliminium vs steel in A-frame ?

Why is almost all european A-frames made of steel, and not aliminium ?
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Old 20 October 2004, 19:50   #2
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Steel is hard, alu is softer.
Its pretty hard strain when you jumping in waves etc and to get alu as durable/lasting as SS it has to be very thick and then it will be more expensive than SS

Specially in the Sweden were SS has high quality and not that expensive for what you get.
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Old 20 October 2004, 19:53   #3
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Funnily enough I think most ofd the Mil spec boats have Alu frames/ Avon seariders have an Ali option and I think pacific's are Alu
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Old 20 October 2004, 19:58   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrov
Steel is hard, alu is softer.
Its pretty hard strain when you jumping in waves etc and to get alu as durable/lasting as SS it has to be very thick and then it will probably be more expensive than SS
I,have cracked my steel-frame several times, The local police Goldfish rib has a reinforced one off, several small cracks, another local charter rib has dismounted it because it has cracked several times.
Talked to a guy with a Hurricane with ali-frame, no cracks yet.

Want to build a one off for my eventually new boat, and i want it to last this time. Cost no big issue.
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Old 20 October 2004, 20:04   #5
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Quote:
I,have cracked my steel-frame several times, The local police Goldfish rib has a reinforced one off, several small cracks, another local charter rib has dismounted it because it has cracked several times.
I only heard of one frame that got a small crack on the boats i have bought and it started on a spot were it was made a welding so it was more of a bad work than the material.

If you have a well known company that is really good in welding and SS i dont think you will have the problem.
Just make sure that you dont under dimension the frame (have seen that a lot of manufacturers can do that some times)
I have no experience of alu frames.
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Old 20 October 2004, 20:09   #6
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Over the years Stainless becomes brittle.
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Old 20 October 2004, 20:18   #7
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Quote:
Over the years Stainless becomes brittle.
And Alu?
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Old 20 October 2004, 20:18   #8
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Alloy is ideal BUT the tubes will need to be of greater diameter - also the strongest alloys aren't the most corrosion resistant hence the need for good coatings or anodising. Should the coating fail you will have probs.

Having said that there are plenty of examples where alloy is used - mountain bike frames - tent poles - ice axe shafts - airframes etc etc.
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Old 20 October 2004, 20:22   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrov
And Alu?
Not so quickly and it has a little more resilience. I believe that Alu tanks are standard for raceboats (as opposed to stainless steel) because they have less tendancy to crack
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Old 20 October 2004, 20:53   #10
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The original ss fueltank in my present rib cracked where the "chamber walls" ( Dont know the word for skvalpe-skott in english ) was welded. The tank was 6 years old. Got a new one from a local blacksmith in ss. told him to make it very sturdy, no expence spared. Took it for a test drive to Skagen. Discovered gas in the bottom of the boat before we got half the way. Same prob again. I now have a tank in 3 mm ali made by proffessionals, and no leaks yet. Goldfish, known to make very fast ribs use ali-tanks.

I,m quite shure ali is the best material, wether its for tanks or A-frames. Just cant figure out why so few manufactures are using it.
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Old 20 October 2004, 20:56   #11
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I think the english word might be baffles, I'll ask my skipper hes a Norse.

i think the reason is that Alu is more difficult to weld and therefore more expensive. Also As Codprawn says it needs some coating also so this makes it dearer and for the average 6 metre rib bouncing round at 30 to 40 knots it's not so much of a problem
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Old 20 October 2004, 21:14   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RibRoy
Why is almost all european A-frames made of steel, and not aliminium ?
Not as shiny?
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Old 20 October 2004, 22:17   #13
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frames

We use ali on all of our frames and it serves well. Codprawn is right in that the diameter has to be thicker (but not the wall thickness if designed right)which, in the case of 10m boats can look better but not so for smaller boats.

As a single frame a minimum of 50mm but we would rather 75mm. For a double frame which is our norm we use 50mm.

A lot of workshops dont like ali as it is defined as a difficult metal to weld and work. This is not the case, it is just buying the gear, getting used to it and in particular its ability to conduct heat and distort. Bending of ali pipes can be difficult depending on the grade. We use MIG welding for speed and TIG for finishing.

Corrosion is an issue as it oxidises but a frame should well do the life of the boat. The big issue comes in when you introduce s/steel fixings as this brings in electrolysis. On our consols this will cause paint blistering over a period.
Never never put ali and brass/copper together - the ali will corrode in weeks.

For tanks we consider ali to be a good value material and would price an ali tank much less that a s/s tank and it would suffer far less with hysteresis.

However correct bonding is essential to ensure that it is not the tank that is sacraficial and there is a risk area where the tank sits in the hull --- you have the grp (producing a slight alkali/some water then the ali and you will find pitting of the ali in this area at approx 50% greater rate than s/s.

You will also finf the problem with the tank that somewhere you will have another metal introduced eg. the fuel sender and this can make the ali sacraficial.

It is though a brilliant material for weight/strength and many superb boats such as SWs Ocean Dynamics will testify to that. If I remember Shaun did a good article in RIB INT last month discussing its properties.

And yes - it dont shine like s/steel !

Cheers

John
www.quinquari.co.uk
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Old 21 October 2004, 19:02   #14
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Thanks Quinquarimarine. I'll go for the ali-frame. Just have to find a experienced workshop to make it. Ali on a boat cant be that bad, after all sailboats been using it i the rig for a long time.


Roy
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Old 24 October 2004, 19:02   #15
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Found this picture of A-frame on rib in Bear Grylls' Trans Atlantic Arctic Expedition- Anybody got a better picture of this A-frame ?
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