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Old 24 February 2005, 08:15   #11
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Interesting info badbaws.
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Old 24 February 2005, 11:16   #12
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All good stuff badbaws-dont think I will bother to get one yet then.

BTW, can you answer my favourite question? No-one else has yet.
Can you, with your professional RADAR kit, "see" a small boat, like a rib, easily?
Cause sure as eggs are eggs, it's bloody dificult to see other ribs, from a rib, even when you are travelling together as a group, but spread out.
I have often wondered whether this is because a) I am low down or b) my RADAR kit is not up to the job or c) I am blind or d) all of the above-er-or some other reason.
The answer is interesting from an SAR perspective for those ribsters who dont carry RADAR reflectors but who may be in trouble.
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Old 24 February 2005, 11:51   #13
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After a quick survey I can back up what badbaws was saying with fact, of the 39 ships in and around the Solent 11 were displaying the wrong information. Either they were saying that they were at anchor while doing 15 knots or they were under way using engine while stationary alongside in Southampton
Interestingly one ‘craft’ which was only displaying an MMSI number was doing 102 knots, slow for a plane but helicopter maybe do they have AIS
Raymarine are also showing a position on the map, possible new product on the way
Des
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Old 24 February 2005, 11:54   #14
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Run them all down!!

it might be fair to say this... I have a height of eye of maybe 45-50 metres when on the bridge of a ship.. I also have 2 radars and a good strong set of binoculars.. and maybe 2 lookouts.. Do we see every small boat at a good range!! Do we F**K!!! no.. the trouble is small boats have a tendancy to blend into the background espcially in any swell, radar reflectors may help you be seen, but in my experience it does not help you be seen beyond 2-3 miles.. If you were stopped in the water and had a murky grey boat as some people do.. I am doing up to 20 knots on a ship and glance out the window.. a good few sweeps of the horizon, both near and far, a check of the radar, adjust the tuning.. I don't see anything you are at 5 miles in a little swell bobing up and down.. 3 minutes later I look out again.. I have travelled a mile a further 6 minutes go by you are now at 2 miles.., have i seen you???? Do i care if I have.. do I just assume small boats get out the way!! (oh sorry that's yachties assuming all others keep out the way of them including supertankers!!!) You might show up on the radar about 2-3 miles.. by the time I have aquired you it may be 30 seconds later, I'll probably have seen you if not making a cup of tea!! Then I'll alter if needed.. but a big ship at 2 miles.. looks like it may not be doing anything!! I know as I have situations with other ships!!
Let me put this to you all.. Commercial ships go from A-B at say 23 knots.. the shipping company comes up with a route gives them exact fuel quantities to get them there and an ETA that they much reach or pay a penalty. If these ships alter course and are late they get hauled into the office for costing the company money. Commerial ships don't liek altering course.. Myself on a ship painted grey even though not a warship commercial shippers basically onclude that we don't follow the rules anyway and they just carry on and hope we gte out the way.. hence why at 2 miles and he hasn't altered we get a bit upset!! Not so bad round the UK but I have just come back from foreign waters where lets just say they tend to be more relaxed about qualifications!! I had to train for 4 years to drive a ship and pass a final oral exam with 100% on anything I had learnt in those four years (fail a rule of the road question and your failed automatically). How many RIBsters don't have tickets!! I instruct yes.. I sail too... I also drive ships.. so see it from all sides.. I am not going to start the qualified to drive debate again!!
AIS if you have it will tell me you are there at sometimes as I have had up to 60 miles away!! How often do I look at teh AIS screen.. how often do i check the radar or look out the window...
It might safe your life!!!! as to radar reflectors.. you still only on a RIB have them mounted maybe a metre off the waterline.. are they any use??? A yacht with a 60 ft mast yes.. a Rib... is it worth it? nice to have.. might help you might not.. Who has them? I know my RIB has 2!!
As with all these things.. safety safety safety.. we all live with it.. do you go offshore if not then is it worth getting one? If you ar e in the Solent and the fog comes down will you be seen? your call i would always fit one to aid being detected.. even an extra half a mile is better than nothing!!
Hope that helps..
Incidentally if anyone has not been on a ship's bridge next time I am on a ship around the UK I shall invite anyone who wants to see down.. you can see what we see or don't see...
if you want to be seen get a bright yellow RIB!!!!!!!!!!!! grey ones tend to disappear!!!
Alex
2nd Mate on grey line cruises!!
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Old 18 February 2006, 15:04   #15
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RIb with radar?

Interesting reading, thanx for writing all that!
Related question: How much better are you "seen" by a big ship if
you have a small 2kw radar on your RIB?
I have allways assumed it is seen one way or another, as I see the various artefacts on my screen when meeting other boats with a radar attached.

Greatful for any feedback on this, thanx!
jtm
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Old 18 February 2006, 15:54   #16
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Not too sure youre gonna like my boat... Ex military and not designed to be seen. Grey on grey with grey trim -hmmm.

Have fitted a radar reflector (open style octahedron) but I would bet a pint that it wouldn't be seen any further than I could throw it.

Be interesting if we could set up a radar painting test and see how different makes of reflector show up at various ranges.
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Old 19 February 2006, 06:06   #17
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Replying to an earlier question, 102 knots and 000 degrees is the default setting for AIS, don't ask me why??? if it is not operating correctly it will show this setting. Also sometimes you will see the name of the ship shown incorrectly, especially if it has been newly fitted. There are some dealers who program their name into it, free advertising I suppose, until the ship can work out what the pasword is and how to change it!
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Old 20 February 2006, 19:52   #18
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Your own radar...

Fitting a radar on your boat won't help us see you from a ship.. Fitting a radar reflector may help a bit depending how the operator uses is using his radar.. not all commercial ships use their radars.. until the fog comes then they turn them on and oh look it broke!! We have ours on all the time we are at sea.. that way we know if they are working properly. But going back to your question.. you have a radar to sea us.. it really does not tell us you are there... See a big ship.. get out the way!! bigger is better!! Steel versus hypalon you do the maths!! I was taught for a four year cadetship to drive ships.. I became a powerboat instructor after 6 days.. ie 3 x 2 day courses.. People on ships know the rules and don't like crashing.. but they also have a sense of falsness.. ie they feel safe on their ship... ans again.. AIS will tell you we are coming towards you.. use it as a guide.. no more.. Remember open sea.. Commercial ships like about a mile around them as a safety zone.. A big ship in the solent will swear at you if you cross less than 500m ahead.. incase it goes wrong.. he can't and won't stop...
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Old 21 February 2006, 04:53   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badbaws
Fitting a radar on your boat won't help us see you from a ship.. Fitting a radar reflector may help a bit depending how the operator uses is using his radar.. not all commercial ships use their radars.. until the fog comes then they turn them on and oh look it broke!! We have ours on all the time we are at sea.. that way we know if they are working properly. But going back to your question.. you have a radar to sea us.. it really does not tell us you are there... See a big ship.. get out the way!! bigger is better!! Steel versus hypalon you do the maths!! I was taught for a four year cadetship to drive ships.. I became a powerboat instructor after 6 days.. ie 3 x 2 day courses.. People on ships know the rules and don't like crashing.. but they also have a sense of falsness.. ie they feel safe on their ship... ans again.. AIS will tell you we are coming towards you.. use it as a guide.. no more.. Remember open sea.. Commercial ships like about a mile around them as a safety zone.. A big ship in the solent will swear at you if you cross less than 500m ahead.. incase it goes wrong.. he can't and won't stop...
"big ship get out of the way" isnt the advice I would give - follow the rules of the road and no grey funnel liner will get pissed off, if you abide by colregs, you'll be doing exactly what the OOW is expecting and things will be cool and the gang. Deviate and that's when issues arise. Whilst commercial ships might like a mile around them, ask any HM ship entering pompey if they've ever had half of that...big commercial in and out of soton is a different matter....
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Old 21 February 2006, 14:02   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donutsina911
"big ship get out of the way" isnt the advice I would give - follow the rules of the road and no grey funnel liner will get pissed off, if you abide by colregs, you'll be doing exactly what the OOW is expecting and things will be cool and the gang. Deviate and that's when issues arise. Whilst commercial ships might like a mile around them, ask any HM ship entering pompey if they've ever had half of that...big commercial in and out of soton is a different matter....
The trouble with being an OOW is that you honestly can't rely on other people doing the right thing when you are on a ship.. people get curious of grey ships and come and visit us... but passing a cable down our ship's side whilst we are in a narrow channel to have a look isn't the nicest thing you can do to us.

To be honest I guess most people on this site will have some idea of the Colregs, the people that scare me the most are gin palace owners and day yachties who meander down the channel not knowing what they are doing...

As an OOW I expect other people to act in accordance with the rules.. I also know that a 2 day level 2 powerboat course doesn't teach the rules to a deep enough knowledge.

Also my previous statement said that big ships like a mile around them in open sea.. in coastal waters you hope for 3 or 4 cables.. that said our ship radars are reliable to +/- 2 cables.. before you add in the effect of weather..
I also work on Grey funnel ships and go out of Pompey aswell as Southampton. SO my humble advice is big ship keep clear(In coastal waters)!! Act within in the colregs if you know them if you don't go get a copy now..
Incidentally a 4000 tonne Destroyer or frigate is not a big ship.. Ours start at 7000 tonnes.. up to 50,000 tonnes.. a UK aircraft carrier only weighs 27,000...
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