Advanced course and twins!

dgpw · 12 January 2004, 14:33

Should twins experience be included in the new Advanced Course rather than just the theory.

Reasons for

It is potentially a commercial course. Practicing twins will mean that people will not be in the position by where they are driving twins for the first time with passengers, (possibly at night)

Twins handle differently at slow speeds and should be taught practically.

Twins are on allot of commercial boats and the RYA advanced ticket is a commercial qualification.

Provides consistency between RTE’s . Some teach the advanced in a 5m tornado with a small outboard. This is very different to a twin set up which is different again to an 8m + with a 300hp!

Reasons against

RTE's would have the expense of maintaining and running a twin just for advanced courses

The new outboards are so much more reliable that are twins needed anymore?

high speed is similar to a single (not the same)

what do people think both instructors and people that are looking to do or have done their advanced. I like teaching in twins!

Pete7 · 12 January 2004, 14:58

No. If your talking about manouvering a boat in say in a marina then surely the technique is to have both engines running but only use one to drive the boat having the second as a spare incase one stalls etc. Why not have both driving ? well why make things complicated, tides, winds and a nagging wife are probably enough for most people to cope with.

But I take the point about the 5m tornado and a 8m rib. Common sence suggests people should learn on something similar to the type of boat they intend to use most freqently.

Pete

David Hickman · 12 January 2004, 15:20

Interesting topic. I fully see your point of view with regards to teaching/examining for the advanced on twin. Perhaps there should be some kind of endorsement on the certificates for single/twin, with a "twin upgrade" on perhaps a 1/2 day extra if required.

I run a single, but have looked at running a twin. Twin would be a waste of time as to be honest the majority of courses are L2. I have in the past run L2's on a twin at another school. Its quite a handfull for a beginner.

dgpw · 12 January 2004, 15:40

Interesting thought having an endorsement. Yes I agree the cost of a twin which is only really suitable for the advanced is very high. But equally can you endorse someone to be competent in a type of boat that you have not seen them driving. They do handle very differently and this is a commercial ticket (ie passengers) Ideally both twin and single should be taught but the expense is higher. perhaps the new higherlevel advanced should be in a twin as well and the lowwer level be in either

Jono Garton · 12 January 2004, 17:29

Hi

We have few new ribs on order one is a 9.5m with twin suzuki 250hp four strokes, this is for teaching clients who are buying or have recently purchaed Twin Screw Gyn palaces. The other reason is i just want it to play in

The main subjects with in the new Advanced Powerboat Course will not be slow speed handeling, so i dont think it will make that much difference. Twin screes do handle slightly different at speed but in my opinion not enough to warrant all RTC's having twin screws.

Most of the commercial courses we do are for Charter Fisherman, and are not normally used to a rib anyway. We also do allot of work for North Wales Police - Ports and Airfield Squad - and they will all be doing a days close quarter handeling when the new twin srew Rib arrives.

David

Is your rib coded for night use in non coded waters?

Paul Glatzel · 12 January 2004, 18:45

DGPW

My view is no. Whilst in an ideal world you would teach on as many types of craft as possible practically it is not realistic to insist all schools have a twin engined craft.

To sign someone off at Advanced (and in due course for them to pass the commercial endorsement exam) an Advanced Instructor/Trainer must have confidence that the student is a very capable powerboater and sensible/safety concious with it. If an Advanced Instructor has signed off someone and taught them theoretical twin handling i would be pretty confident that that person faced with a twin engined craft would take the time to get to know the craft and its handling foibles. Even if they stepped straight to the helm then that person will be able to make a pretty good show of themselves even if they've never driven a twin engined installation.

Also, at much less than 1m drive separation the effect of having twins is materially diminished - which is an issue on the smaller craft. I advise people to keep it simple and use the outside/one engine when slow speed handling until they are in a craft large enough for the effect to work well.

If i'm approached by people wanting to helm a gin palace with twins, a bowthruster and serious windage then they should proceed via the Motor Cruising Scheme rather than the Powerboat Scheme as i'm not convinced learning twin screw handling on a 9 m RIB compares with doing it on a 40Ft Fairline. Sadly don't yet do this so we send them elsewhere.

That's my twopennyworth

Paul

Rupert Bear · 12 January 2004, 21:23

I did my advanced course on the Clyde. It included twin engined RIBs, large yacht under power (berthing,unberthing), twin engined workboat (about 10m) and various single engined RIBs.
Maybe I got an even better deal than I had thought reading through this.

Rick · 14 January 2004, 14:27

Rupert Bear,

I am just about to arrange my advanced course, was looking at doing it at the National Watersports Centre on Cumbrae.

Would be interested in where you did at as it looks like it covered more than just a RIB. Also interested in cost, Cumbrae are charging £130 for the 2 days.

Jono Garton · 14 January 2004, 16:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Rick
Cumbrae are charging £130 for the 2 days.

They arn't making much money then!!!

Are you sure this is for A course and not an Assesement????

Rick · 14 January 2004, 16:43

Spoke to them on the phone yesterday. The cost is for the course. They charge the same for the Level 2

The Jackeens · 14 January 2004, 16:47

thier site

http://www.sportscotland.org.uk/cont...erboating1.htm

Paul Glatzel · 14 January 2004, 17:28

Jono

Indeed it is £130 for the two days. I am sure we are both of the view that it is uneconomic to run a school at such rates but then the centre looks like a Local Authority centre which can materially alter the economics of it.

If you're based in Scotland they look a good option, suggest you also look at Seatrek Training who are good too

Paul

Jono Garton · 14 January 2004, 17:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul Glatzel
looks like a Local Authority centre

You mean one of the centres where you get a Dinghy Instructor teaching your course who just happens to be able to teach Power also. Sorry i shouldn't be so bitter

In my opinion (and experiance at Plas menai) the quality of the advanced courses at general watersports centres are not up to the standards of dedicated powerboating centres. You only have to look at the quality of their boats to see where their prioity's are - normally a new fleet of sailing dinghies, wind surfers and a few old RIBS.

Rogue Wave · 14 January 2004, 18:00

Jono

Just to wind you up a bit more it happens all over the place , there is a good one in Southampton called SWAC, but they do not have to struggle to keep the centre afloat as the council find everything. they have about 6 Ribs an a zillion dinghies.

It is a great big problem when your competition has no overheads to meet or has to find no return on it's investment, and probably recieves a financial award for every student it has, but if that's the way it is , then you adopt strategies around the problem.

As somebody involved in setting up a power boat centre then it concerns me a lot as it makes it hard to charge premium prices and if you can't do that you can't afford premium facilities.

On the other hand as a boat user the thoght of more people being trained makes me very happy, and if the council doing the training for half the commercial price gets more on the water then so be it.

Your companies major strength is it's Flexibility and enthusism and new equipment, they are your USP's work em and things will be OK.

You are right you can't really learn advanced stuff in a small RIB.
for that matter the RYA advanced course has a rough water section in it. How many schools offer a reverse rain check if the sea isn't very rough during the course, now that's one thing that would swing me to a school.

Jono Garton · 14 January 2004, 18:09

Hi

I did my instructor course at SWAC. 1 instructor & 4 pupils, inc me and Graeme cooper (both od us are not on the light side of things), Another guy who was about 8' tall - all in a 4/4.5m with 50hp honda. The boat would not even get out of the hole.

The Jackeens · 14 January 2004, 18:19

So Jono are you saying your qualifications are crap then !!!

good enough for you to go to but no one else

Seems a little odd to me

jwalker · 14 January 2004, 18:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul Glatzel
DGPW

To sign someone off at Advanced (and in due course for them to pass the commercial endorsement exam) an Advanced Instructor/Trainer must have confidence that the student is a very capable powerboater and sensible/safety concious with it. If an Advanced Instructor has signed off someone and taught them theoretical twin handling i would be pretty confident that that person faced with a twin engined craft would take the time to get to know the craft and its handling foibles. Even if they stepped straight to the helm then that person will be able to make a pretty good show of themselves even if they've never driven a twin engined installation.

That's my twopennyworth..............

Paul

Very well said. If you're not an advanced powerboater you shouldn't pass, end of story.

Jono Garton · 14 January 2004, 18:54

I'm saying the RIBS were rubbish and totally unsuitable for the course being run.

I'm also saying you get a different quality of schools for example you can go to SWAC and do a course run by an experianced WATERSPORTS INSTRUCTOR in a 4m RIB with 50HP that wont go more than 12knots.

or you can come to a DEDICATED POWERBOAT SCHOOL, like my own, Paul Glatzels, David Hickmans, Dave Mallets which is run by experianced POWERBOATERS that are also POWERBOAT INSTRUCTORS in a modern, powerful, quality, practical, range of boats.

Afterall you get what you pay for

stuart hedges · 14 January 2004, 19:59

JW and PG

Couldn't agree more

Paul - Im not really here, don't tell anyone

Rupert Bear · 14 January 2004, 20:10

The local authority does not run the Millport centre. SportScotland subsidises the centre for teaching watersports as their flagship water facility, think they subsidise Port Edgar on the East coast also but not sure.
As the level of course goes up the subsidy rises as they train instructors, outdoor pursuits teachers, commercial and vocational training etc etc etc.
The facilities are first class, did most of my courses up to Instructor there and they are cheap because of the subsidised rates.
Boats are excellent, I have used various RIB's, a twin inboard workboat about 10m or so, large Yachts and others during the various courses I did there over the last 6 or 7 years. They make a point of getting you to try as many as possible, especially on the advanced and instructor courses.
I would go back if I needed anything, you certainly get far more than you pay for.