A question of Rules

neilb · 16 October 2007, 12:37

A friend of mine was out fishing on Saturday in a 6m bayliner anchored outside of the main channel in the solent. Without any warning he suddenly noticed a 73ft sailing vessel bearing down on him facing bow to bow. He shouted and the skipper looked up but it was too late for her to miss him and the sailing vessel smashed its side into his bow and started to drag the boat underwater. Luckly the anchor line broke and his boat broke free. His boat is now a write off.

My question is "Are you suppose to legally display anything to indicate you are at anchor and/or fishing". His insurance company are asking the questions. My understanding is that if you are less than 7m you don't have to display an anchor ball but are you classed as a fishing vessel and have to display appropiate fishing lights.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

Neil

donutsina911 · 16 October 2007, 14:23

its gonna be a percentage game me thinks..gut feel says 70% against the yacht, 30% against your mate..

Rule 18 states that a sailing vessel under way shall keep out of the way of a vessel engaged in fishing, but rule 3 states that the term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manageability.

So, your mate with a fishing line out isnt really a vessel engaged in fishing and so the give way rule doesnt seem to apply..

I think what will also be questioned is the anchor issue..

Rule 30 states that a vessel of less than 7 meters in length, when at anchor not in or near a narrow channel, fairway or where other vessels normally navigate, shall not be required to exhibit the shape prescribed in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this Rule.

Where was he at anchor in the Solent, I reckon this will be important.

Ultimately, I figure it will be a case of deciding who, if anyone a) kept a good look out b) if the sailing vessel was proceeding at a safe speed and c) if either party took the appropriate steps to avoid collision.

Doug Stormforce · 16 October 2007, 16:01

Assuming the facts you have given are right, its an open shut case, the sailing yacht is in the wrong.

Fishing etc does not come into this.

Vesel under 7m at anchor outside main channel or fairway.

Sailing vessel should be keping a proper lookout by all avaliable means etc., should be assessing risk of collision etc, having deamed rick of collision risks, should maintain course, speed LOOK OUT etc, should avoid collision etc.

nugent · 16 October 2007, 16:04

time for another kangaroo rib court----
it aint got an engine nor toobs, simple slay him alive,

donutsina911 · 16 October 2007, 16:05

Its the issue of where in the Solent the boat was...

rules say that if a vessel under 7m is not in or near a narrow channel, fairway or where other vessels normally navigate, shall not be required to exhibit the shape prescribed in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this Rule

so if the bayliner was near a channel or fairway or where other vessels normally navigate,which in the Solent is possible/probable depending on your definition of near, and not showing the correct shapes, then the yacht may have a limited defence hence my 30% comment..there's rarely a 100% decision made in favour of any party when enforcing the colregs.

codprawn · 16 October 2007, 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by donutsina911

Its the issue of where in the Solent the boat was...

rules say that if a vessel under 7m is not in or near a narrow channel, fairway or where other vessels normally navigate, shall not be required to exhibit the shape prescribed in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this Rule

so if the bayliner was near a channel or fairway or where other vessels normally navigate,which in the Solent is possible/probable depending on your definition of near, and not showing the correct shapes, then the yacht may have a limited defence hence my 30% comment..there's rarely a 100% decision made in favour of any party when enforcing the colregs.

You could also argue that a vessel tends to limit it's normal area of navigation to the Sea therefore anywhere could apply!!! As this is a stupid assumption to make I agree with Doug - a boat that is obviously stationary in the water should NOT be mown down by another vessel if they are keeping a proper lookout!!!

alystra · 16 October 2007, 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilb

A friend of mine was out fishing on Saturday in a 6m bayliner anchored outside of the main channel in the solent. Without any warning he suddenly noticed a 73ft sailing vessel bearing down on him facing bow to bow. He shouted and the skipper looked up but it was too late for her to miss him and the sailing vessel smashed its side into his bow and started to drag the boat underwater. Luckly the anchor line broke and his boat broke free. His boat is now a write off.

My question is "Are you suppose to legally display anything to indicate you are at anchor and/or fishing". His insurance company are asking the questions. My understanding is that if you are less than 7m you don't have to display an anchor ball but are you classed as a fishing vessel and have to display appropiate fishing lights.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

Neil

I think the fishing thing is irrelevant, the boat was not a 'fishing boat'. It was 'a vessel at anchor'. Vessels under way should keep clear of vessels at anchor.

The colregs don't allow for a 'no blame' scenario. If two vessels collide then both are to blame - and the degree of blame is represented by a percentage, which the insurance companies use in calculating their liability.

The yacht should have kept clear. While your friend was not required to show an anchor ball, he was not (presumably) anchored in a recognised anchorage or harbour and so approaching vessels would not have expected to come across a boat at anchor. Common sense seamanship would require your friend to keep a lookout and warn any approaching vessel that he was at anchor - which he apparently did. His fault is that he didn't do that early enough to allow the approaching yacht to take avoiding action.

I think almost all the blame is with the yacht. They were obviously not looking where they were going. Though your friend took action to prevent a collision, he took it too late and so may share some of the blame for the incident.

If it were me I'd be really pissed off. Let's hope common sense wins the day.

Of course, I may be talking rubbish.

Mollers · 16 October 2007, 16:37

Neither where the boat was or what it was doing come into it. It could've been at anchor due to mechanical problems. For the yacht to have sailed into it meant that proper watch was not being kept aboard the yacht. If there had been serious injury involved, the yacht skipper would be looking at criminal charges.

Doug Stormforce · 16 October 2007, 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mollers

Neither where the boat was or what it was doing come into it. It could've been at anchor due to mechanical problems. For the yacht to have sailed into it meant that proper watch was not being kept aboard the yacht. If there had been serious injury involved, the yacht skipper would be looking at criminal charges.

Im not a legal expert, but I dont think he is looking at criminal charges.

Limey Linda · 16 October 2007, 17:43

The sad reality of this type of situation is that the insurance companys will do a deal between themselves and both boat owners will be the loosers.

BassBoy · 16 October 2007, 18:02

Rule 5 I think, should prevail. 'Lookout'. BUT..........from both parties? Was fishing vessel not under command, at anchor, restricted in her abililty to manouver etc . Did the yacht owner 'blow in a bag'!!!!! Have MAIB been informed?

neilb · 16 October 2007, 19:35

Thanks for all your views. His boat was anchored just inshore of West Lepe near the Beaulieu river where the shallow water starts. This is just outside the main channel. The yacht was a well known sail training boat sailed by a qualified skipper, made of steel and weighing in at 53 tons. No contest against a 6m bayliner.

This also raises a question. My rib is over 7m so do I have to raise an anchor ball whenever I am at anchor. If so where do I hang it so that it can be seen. Does anyone use one?

Mollers · 16 October 2007, 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilb

Thanks for all your views. His boat was anchored just inshore of West Lepe near the Beaulieu river where the shallow water starts. This is just outside the main channel. The yacht was a well known sail training boat sailed by a qualified skipper, made of steel and weighing in at 53 tons. No contest against a 6m bayliner.

This also raises a question. My rib is over 7m so do I have to raise an anchor ball whenever I am at anchor. If so where do I hang it so that it can be seen. Does anyone use one?

Sounds like a Challenge boat to me.

Downhilldai · 16 October 2007, 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilb

..... sailed by a qualified skipper, made of steel and weighing in at 53 tons.

Sounds like a big bloke

I'd have apologised for getting in his way and left sharply

Nos4r2 · 16 October 2007, 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilb

He shouted and the skipper looked up

If that bit's 100% accurate then it's hardly going to have made any difference if your mate had any number of balls or lights showing.

Pete7 · 17 October 2007, 08:01

Was it a charter yacht? eg coded because I would be having a word with the MCA in that case. Hope your mate has it insured.

Pete

Hightower · 17 October 2007, 08:45

Might be worth having a bucket full of flares on the standby. At least you'd have something to fire at them

or if the worst happened and you ended up in the water you'd have a visual marker.

This happened to a charter fishing boat I was on several years ago. The Yacht did manage to miss us, but did catch the Anchor rope and drag the fishing Michell 36 along for a while till the rope became unsnagged. Skipper reported the Yacht in question to the coastgaurds and then to MCA (not sure it was called that back then), he did have a little damage to the bow roller and handrail.

geoff · 17 October 2007, 14:46

I wasn't on this particular sailing boat but...

Many years ago I was sailing in a Thames barge from Gravesend to Harwich. Beautiful day with the wind behind us and going along at 13 knots. Many of us enjoying a glass of wine etc.. It was then that we noticed this strange noise, sounded like a fog horn. It was a fog horn and we were bearing down on a fisherman anchored in the estuary. His timely action allowed us to change course and avoid a nasty collision (for him, not us).

No question that we should have had a proper look-out but since then I have always been careful to keep an eye out when at anchor.

justvisiting · 17 October 2007, 19:57

hello all

I WAS in this boat - The Bayliner!!!

Thank you all for your views and thoughts on this whole sorry matter.

For obvious reasons I cannot name names as the owners of the 53 ton yacht have still to respond to my communication attempts.

Enough to say that we, my wife and three children (8, 10 & 13) are very lucky to be here. This was the most frightening experience and one which will take along time to fade in memory.

Regarding keeping a lookout, yes, 100%. I owe my thanks to my wife who at least attracted the attention of the lady at the yachts helm and her 25 degree turn averted a direct bow to bow hit which would have been far more serious.

Regarding a fishing vessel. we are a 19ft speedboat with 2 fishing rods out the stern. Not quite a fishing vessel as referred to in the RYA rules I feel.

To me it is all quite simple. She didn't see us, for whatever reason, she just didn't see us.

Regarding reporting to MCA and MAIB. I am contemplating all options and will keep this post updated as things move on.

Right now, I am just thankful that we are all safe and hope to be back on the water soon, albeit not in the bayliner I had.

regards

codprawn · 17 October 2007, 22:42

It could so easily have been much worse. Thank God everything's ok. Don't dwell on it or it will take a long time to fade. Kids are amazing at getting over things - they are probably heros in school already!!!