Ridiculous commercial towing limits.

[Ribshop]

We were just about to go out and purchase a Land Rover Defender 90 hard top with a towing capacity of 3500kg and weighing in a 1785kg but reading through the commercial towing laws if we did not want to fit a tacho this would limit us to a trailer limit of 1715kg so not to brake the 3500kg max gross vehicle weight.
If we bought a Vauxhall Viano that could not pull the skin of a rice pudding, because it only weighs 1300kg and is plated to tow 2200kg we could tow 2200kg. Is it just me or is this madness?

There is a clause that if you are within 50k of your base you can ignore all of this providing the gross weight does not exceed 7500kg but this is interpreted differently on several websites. Any ideas?

[mick]

Madness can you get round it by fitting a tachometer

[ROG.]

I assume this is about tacho and driver regs and not O licence regs?
NEW VOSA GUIDE GV262-03

Exemptions and derogations
Vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum
permissible mass not exceeding 7.5 tonnes that
are used:
... for carrying materials, equipment or machinery
for the driver’s use in the course of his work.
These vehicles shall be used only within a 50 km
radius of the base of the undertaking and on the
condition that driving the vehicle does not constitute
the driver’s main activity.

Depends on what the driver is actually doing
If the driver tows a digger to a place and then uses that digger all day and tows it back again within 50 km of base then no tacho required as it does not come under EU regs


I also think you are using the wrong weights in your calculation
I think you are using the unladen/kerb weights where you must use the GVW weights of the towing vehicles

The GVW plus the trailer plated MAM = the total you are seeking

[Ribshop]

We don’t want to fit a tacho as my understanding is if one is fitted it has to be used all the time and not just when the GVW is over 3500kg.

We would be delivery and collecting boats so it would not be the same as a digger driver.

[C2 RIBS]

Keiron did you read this useful post from SW RIB Charter
http://www.rib.net/forum/f49/changes...ing-45272.html
We are all in between a rock and a hard place over this legislation. I think with your business you will be screwed for the 50k limit avoidance of fitting as it will not be for your use but a customer end product.

[ROG.]

Originally Posted by Ribshop

We don’t want to fit a tacho as my understanding is if one is fitted it has to be used all the time and not just when the GVW is over 3500kg.

We would be delivery and collecting boats so it would not be the same as a digger driver.

Nowhere near the same - that is transporting goods so comes under EU driver regs

When the B category vehicle is not hitched to the trailer then it does not come under EU driver regs BUT......

If the vehicle has been used for towing during that shift then it is best to keep with the tacho and select out-of-scope

Any out-of-scope driving or any other work done during a WEEK (sunday midnight to sunday midnight) when any EU regs driving has been done MUST be officially recorded so that the authorities can check that you have had the required weekly and daily rest

Officially recorded means using a seperate analogue card for each day with your name ,date, start & finish times on each one OR inputting all that info into the digitacho OR making daily printouts from the digitacho and putting that info on it

Domestic regs records are also accepted in the UK for those vehicle which come under those rules

Regarding O licencing -
I believe there is a move afoot to change the trailer laws for the current exemption for trailers under 1020 unladen weight to ALL trailers but I stand to be corrected on that

[SW Boat Transport]

Originally Posted by Ribshop

We were just about to go out and purchase a Land Rover Defender 90 hard top with a towing capacity of 3500kg and weighing in a 1785kg but reading through the commercial towing laws if we did not want to fit a tacho this would limit us to a trailer limit of 1715kg so not to brake the 3500kg max gross vehicle weight.
If we bought a Vauxhall Viano that could not pull the skin of a rice pudding, because it only weighs 1300kg and is plated to tow 2200kg we could tow 2200kg. Is it just me or is this madness?

There is a clause that if you are within 50k of your base you can ignore all of this providing the gross weight does not exceed 7500kg but this is interpreted differently on several websites. Any ideas?

It is the GVWs that are important here, not the unladen weights. A new Land Rover 90 has a GVW of 2505kg. This means that if you tow a trailer with a GVW over 995kg behind it you will need a tachograph. The Vauxhall Vivaro had a GVW of between 2770 - 2830kg depending on engine chosen. This means you can only tow a trailer with a GVW of 780kg - 670kg without needing a tachograph.

There is an exemption on the tachograph regulations for a vehicle/trailer combination with a combined GVW not exceeding 7500kg GVW which is used to carry materials, equipment or machinery for the drivers use in the course of his work within a 50 km radius of base and where driving is not the driver s main activity.

If you are transporting goods belonging to other people, you will also need an operators licence.

[SW Boat Transport]

Originally Posted by ROG.

Regarding O licencing -
I believe there is a move afoot to change the trailer laws for the current exemption for trailers under 1020 unladen weight to ALL trailers but I stand to be corrected on that

The exemption from operator licencing for trailers with an unladen weight of upto 1020kg was amended on 4th December last year. It now only applies to operators of vehicles that only carry their own goods in connection with their trade or business. If the combined GVW of your vehicle and trailers exceeds 3500kg and you are carrying goods for other people, you will need an operators licence.

[ROG.]

Originally Posted by SW RIB Charter

The exemption from operator licencing for trailers with an unladen weight of upto 1020kg was amended on 4th December last year. It now only applies to operators of vehicles that only carry their own goods in connection with their trade or business. If the combined GVW of your vehicle and trailers exceeds 3500kg and you are carrying goods for other people, you will need an operators licence.

Thanks for that

[Seabay]

Having been involved in Motorsport for many years,

I am noticing the Service barges (Vans/Landrovers/Estate cars carrying Tyres, Tools and teapots) towing Rally cars on trailers that they all have stickers near the drivers doors that say " Not for Hire of Reward " When I asked a few drivers they said that it was to avoid fitting a Tacho. Most of these travel the whole of the UK. So aslong as you dont charge for your towing duties wouldn't it be the same?

[SW Boat Transport]

Originally Posted by Seabay

Having been involved in Motorsport for many years,

I am noticing the Service barges (Vans/Landrovers/Estate cars carrying Tyres, Tools and teapots) towing Rally cars on trailers that they all have stickers near the drivers doors that say " Not for Hire of Reward " When I asked a few drivers they said that it was to avoid fitting a Tacho. Most of these travel the whole of the UK. So aslong as you dont charge for your towing duties wouldn't it be the same?

If they were doing it as part of their hobby ie "Not for Hire of Reward" then no tachograph would be require as long as the combined GVWs of vehicle and trailer did not exceed 7500kg. If there was any reward or possibility of reward involved (there was a case recently where a horse box owner got prosecuted as they were travelling to a show with a possibility of winning a prize) then a tachograph would still be required.

[ROG.]

Originally Posted by SW RIB Charter

If they were doing it as part of their hobby ie "Not for Hire of Reward" then no tachograph would be require as long as the combined GVWs of vehicle and trailer did not exceed 7500kg. If there was any reward or possibility of reward involved (there was a case recently where a horse box owner got prosecuted as they were travelling to a show with a possibility of winning a prize) then a tachograph would still be required.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repositor...0low%20res.pdf
Not so - from page 8 case study #1
Karen is the owner of a horse that she regularly transports to competitions, using a 7.5 tonne gross vehicle weight horsebox. She considers this very much to be her hobby, travelling to events mainly at weekends. She wins some prize-money occasionally, which goes towards the upkeep of her horse and transportation costs. From time to time, she also transports her friend’s horse, which enables them to share the fuel costs. Karen doesn’t have an operator’s licence and doesn’t use the tachograph which is fitted in the vehicle.

The circumstances under which Karen uses her horsebox mean that she doesn’t need to be authorised by a goods vehicle operator’s licence. She doesn’t transport her horse, or any other horse, as part of any business venture. As such, she can’t be construed to be doing it for hire or reward or in connection with a trade or business, which is the main criteria for requiring an operator’s licence. She does attract some very modest income from time to time in the form of the occasional prize-money or small fuel contribution, but these sums of money are not enough to take her into the realms of operating commercially.

She is also entitled not to use the tachograph which is installed in the vehicle because the weight of the vehicle doesn’t exceed 7.5 tonnes and she isn’t operating on a commercial basis.

Karen does, however, need to ensure that her horsebox is maintained in a roadworthy condition and that she has at least category C1 entitlement on her driving licence.

[SW Boat Transport]

This is a very grey area. See below extract from VOSA website:

"Unfortunately, "modest prize money" has never been formally defined or quantified for the purpose of goods vehicle operator licensing. Nevertheless, where it is clear that there is only the prospect of nominal winnings which are merely incidental to the amateur activity, then VOSA would not consider that an operator's licence would be required.

Where there is the likelihood of winning prize money is on a more regular basis (whether or not the activity is on an "amateur" basis) and any such success has attracted sponsorship - or any other form of corporate support - this may be construed as having a commercial element to it, where an operator's licence may be required (N.B. this may include the vehicle bearing the sponsors name - in return for the financial support received"

[ROG.]

Originally Posted by SW RIB Charter

This is a very grey area. See below extract from VOSA website:

"Unfortunately, "modest prize money" has never been formally defined or quantified for the purpose of goods vehicle operator licensing. Nevertheless, where it is clear that there is only the prospect of nominal winnings which are merely incidental to the amateur activity, then VOSA would not consider that an operator's licence would be required.

Where there is the likelihood of winning prize money is on a more regular basis (whether or not the activity is on an "amateur" basis) and any such success has attracted sponsorship - or any other form of corporate support - this may be construed as having a commercial element to it, where an operator's licence may be required (N.B. this may include the vehicle bearing the sponsors name - in return for the financial support received"

As with anything - each case would have to be proven that the driver was not complying with the law beyond a reasonable doubt

[Silverfox]

Just been busted by the police on this today - £200 fine for the privilege too, but no points.

Have a LWB, High Roof Transit, a trailer with a lawn mower on / in it [the trailer].

We were OK on driver time, as our main activity isn't driving.

But our combined GVW (without the Police using a weigh bridge) would have been more than 3500 kg, and as we had travelled just over 50 kms or 31 miles on business - Ka-ching - £200 please.

Getting quotes for two tachos to be fitted asap to a couple of vans now.

Stable door and horse bolted is a phrase that springs to mind.

What it shows, is that the cops clearly know about this and are willing to stop vehicles to check - because nothing else was wrong with the van or trailer or the driving!

[ROG.]

Originally Posted by Silverfox

Just been busted by the police on this today - £200 fine for the privilege too, but no points.

Have a LWB, High Roof Transit, a trailer with a lawn mower on / in it [the trailer].

We were OK on driver time, as our main activity isn't driving.

But our combined GVW (without the Police using a weigh bridge) would have been more than 3500 kg, and as we had travelled just over 50 kms or 31 miles on business - Ka-ching - £200 please.

Getting quotes for two tachos to be fitted asap to a couple of vans now.

Stable door and horse bolted is a phrase that springs to mind.

What it shows, is that the cops clearly know about this and are willing to stop vehicles to check - because nothing else was wrong with the van or trailer or the driving!

EU 561/2006

article 13

(d) vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum
permissible mass not exceeding 7,5 tonnes used:

—

for carrying materials, equipment or machinery for

the driver's use in the course of his work.
These vehicles shall be used only within a 50 kilometre
radius from the base of the undertaking, and on
condition that driving the vehicles does not constitute

the driver's main activity;

So was it outside the 50 km RADIUS?

[mick]

Originally Posted by Silverfox

Just been busted by the police on this today - £200 fine for the privilege too, but no points.

Have a LWB, High Roof Transit, a trailer with a lawn mower on / in it [the trailer].

We were OK on driver time, as our main activity isn't driving.

But our combined GVW (without the Police using a weigh bridge) would have been more than 3500 kg, and as we had travelled just over 50 kms or 31 miles on business - Ka-ching - £200 please.

Getting quotes for two tachos to be fitted asap to a couple of vans now.

Stable door and horse bolted is a phrase that springs to mind.

What it shows, is that the cops clearly know about this and are willing to stop vehicles to check - because nothing else was wrong with the van or trailer or the driving!

So did you get done for weight or having no tachometer

[Silverfox]

Got done on tachometer because we were over 3500kg

[C2 RIBS]

What area were you in please?

[Silverfox]

Stopped on the M6 near Knutsford, Cheshire.