Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 
Old 18 March 2009, 07:51   #1
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Hull, East Yorkshire
Boat name: Hull Uni One
Make: Humber
Length: 6m +
Engine: OB, Petrol, 140HP
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 121
'Commercial' towing derogations

Morning all,

Can anyone clarify our situation:

I work for a University. Our boat is used for training and commercial purposes.
The GTW for our combo (Hilux 280 double cab, single axle trailer) is 4280Kg (I had it on a weighbridge yesterday, fully fuelled, the gross weight was 3440Kg so we're well within the towing limits).

A I understand it, according to the VOSA guidelines, this means we need a tacho fitted and an operators licence to tow the boat. However, there is this specific derogation (lifted straight from the guidance notes):

Quote:
Vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum
permissible mass not exceeding 7.5 tonnes that are
used:
• by universal service providers as defined in Article
2(13) of Directive 96/67/EC of the European
Parliament and of the Council of 15 December 1997
on common rules for the development of the internal
market of community postal services and the
improvement of quality service to deliver items as part
of the universal service; or
• for carrying materials, equipment or machinery
for the driver’s use in the course of his work.

These vehicles shall be used only within a 50 km
radius of the base of the undertaking and on the
condition that driving the vehicle does not constitute
the driver’s main activity.
The way I read this, we are carrying 'equipment or machinary for the driver's use in the course of his work' and provided we are towing within 50Km of 'base', we don't fall under the EU driver hours regs.

Am I barking up the wrong tree here? Any advice much appreciated!
__________________

__________________
Dry_Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18 March 2009, 13:58   #2
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Crawley
Boat name: Cossack
Make: Avon Searider
Length: 5m +
Engine: outboard 75 hp 2 str
MMSI: 235067342
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 45
You need to be a 'universal service provider' before you can grab the exemption. I believe that means you are part of a service that provides general access to telpehone or postal services - e.g. British Telecom & Kingston (the Hull telecom service provider) have been designated as universal service providers.

Sadly you and I caan't get that designation!
__________________

__________________
Sailmaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 March 2009, 07:30   #3
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Hull, East Yorkshire
Boat name: Hull Uni One
Make: Humber
Length: 6m +
Engine: OB, Petrol, 140HP
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailmaker View Post
You need to be a 'universal service provider' before you can grab the exemption. I believe that means you are part of a service that provides general access to telpehone or postal services - e.g. British Telecom & Kingston (the Hull telecom service provider) have been designated as universal service providers.

Sadly you and I caan't get that designation!
Is that correct? The way I read it it applies to USPs OR for carrying materials/equipment/goods for the driver's use.

According to VOSA GV74 (Goods vehicle operator licensing - guide for operators), we also may be exempt as 'dual purpose' vehicles are exempt from the operator's regulations. Although I haven't yet found a definitive definition of what constitutes 'dual purpose'.

Also, (again according to GV74) if the trailer's unladen weight is less than 1020Kg, then it is ignored in weight calculations anyway. So provided the tow vehicle MAM is less than 3500Kg then an operator's licence isn't required.

I really think I need to speak to the traffic commisioners' office for a definitive answer!
__________________
Dry_Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 March 2009, 07:56   #4
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Crawley
Boat name: Cossack
Make: Avon Searider
Length: 5m +
Engine: outboard 75 hp 2 str
MMSI: 235067342
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 45
You may be right, I missed the 'OR'. As you say let's see how the traffic commissioners interpret it.
__________________
Sailmaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 March 2009, 12:08   #5
RIBnet admin team
 
Nos4r2's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: The wilds of Wiltshire
Boat name: WhiteNoise/Dominator
Make: Ballistic 7.8/SR5.4
Length: 7m +
Engine: Opti 225/Yam 85
MMSI: 235090687/235055163
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,645
RIBase
I don't know the answer to this one-but if you do find out that it's legal to tow it without a tacho an O-licence, I'd laminate and carry a copy of the legislation or letter from the traffic comissioner with you.
VOSA staff are notoriously good at using 'personal interpretations' of the rules-or on occasion making things up.
__________________
Need spares,consoles,consumables,hire,training or even a new boat?

Please click HERE and HERE and support our Trade Members.

Join up as a Trade member or Supporter HERE
Nos4r2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 March 2009, 12:46   #6
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Hull, East Yorkshire
Boat name: Hull Uni One
Make: Humber
Length: 6m +
Engine: OB, Petrol, 140HP
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nos4r2 View Post
I don't know the answer to this one-but if you do find out that it's legal to tow it without a tacho an O-licence, I'd laminate and carry a copy of the legislation or letter from the traffic comissioner with you.
VOSA staff are notoriously good at using 'personal interpretations' of the rules-or on occasion making things up.
I've spoken to VOSA (on the phone, so not actually binding at all in any way shape or form!) and they confirmed that dual purpose vehicles (i.e. basically 4x4 vehicles with 4 seats and weighing under 2040Kg) are exempt, full stop.
They also confirmed that 'Small' (under 3.5t MAM) commercial vehicles can also be exempt, provided that it's towing a 'small' trailer (unladen weight of less than 1040Kg), as small trailers are ignored when calculating weight for the purposes of O-licences.

It's all in this document:

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosacorp/repo...74%2009-08.pdf

Part1, para 1.1 (p3) and Appendix 3 (p32), down near the bottom of the page.

The Rules on Drivers' hours document doesn't seem to make any mention of this! But, to be fair, it is concerned primarily with Drivers' Hours rather than operator licences.

This link may be useful too:

http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/cr...quirements.htm
__________________
Dry_Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20 March 2009, 10:23   #7
Member
 
m chappelow's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: yorkshire
Boat name: little vicky
Make: avon ex RNLI
Length: 3m +
Engine: tohatsu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,310
i know that there used to be 2 types of operators licence b which was orange in colour and the c ,the b was for what i think you requirements are ,your own equipment and goods but not for sale and non carrige of another persons goods for hire or reward , the c licence was colour blue that was for carrying goods ie general haulage and distribution ie pick up and delivery of others goods for hire or reward ,i knew someone that had a large transit van that required a tacograph to be fitted and calibrated every 2 years but he dident have to use it ,
__________________
m chappelow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20 March 2009, 14:51   #8
Member
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Town: Easdale
Make: Humber/Quinquari
Length: 10m +
Engine: Outboard
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 297
Towing trailer

I called at the local VOSA Centre.
The information I was given
Trailer unladen weight less than 1020Kg is crucial
Fit a tacho
You adhere to the driving hours when you are towing -
As we also use our Land Rover privately the comment was don't need to use the tacho at these times.
Tow trailer to the max recommended weight limit for the vehicle as stated by the manufacturer.
Keep records of servicing trailer, vehicle
Have a start up inspection of vehicle/trailer lights, tyres etc and log
We wouldn't then be bothered
__________________
Tony Hill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 March 2009, 05:31   #9
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Hull, East Yorkshire
Boat name: Hull Uni One
Make: Humber
Length: 6m +
Engine: OB, Petrol, 140HP
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Hill View Post
I called at the local VOSA Centre.
The information I was given
Trailer unladen weight less than 1020Kg is crucial
Fit a tacho
You adhere to the driving hours when you are towing -
As we also use our Land Rover privately the comment was don't need to use the tacho at these times.
Tow trailer to the max recommended weight limit for the vehicle as stated by the manufacturer.
Keep records of servicing trailer, vehicle
Have a start up inspection of vehicle/trailer lights, tyres etc and log
We wouldn't then be bothered
Pardon my ignorance, but why would you want to go to the expense and hassle of fitting a tacho if you don't need one? Are VOSA staff really that prickly/ignorant of their own rules?

The driver's hours hasn't been an issue for us really as we generally only tow the boat about 10 miles from the campus to our launch point on the Humber.
__________________
Dry_Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 March 2009, 08:41   #10
Member
 
Country: USA
Town: Torrance
Length: no boat
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 332
Was this the Beverley VOSA office? I had some dealings with them about 14 months ago on a licensing matter and it was a nightmare - they gave me the wrong documents, issued something they weren't meant to and cost me 2 unnecessary return trips of about 80 miles to sort out their mess as it couldn't be done over the phone.

W.
__________________

__________________
Compass Deliveries
SDGANDER is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.