Proposed car Tax scheme - Page 2

Biggles · 11 February 2007, 18:25

For every £1 you spend at the pumps, the Government currently snatches around 65 pence in fuel tax. Depending on which car you drive, you pay between about 10p and 50p a mile in general motoring taxation. In addition to all this, the Government has already expressed a desire to introduce road tolls of up to £1.34 per mile. Sorry, but it's just another, barely legal, tax to use roads we've already paid for several times over

codprawn · 11 February 2007, 18:47

Just seen it is now over the 1 million mark - biggest petition ever - but the government are still trying to ignore it!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6349027.stm

Ian M · 11 February 2007, 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kennett

I think he was suggesting Biggles' back yard instead of his own!

John

Doh

Biggles · 11 February 2007, 19:50

If we had the space we'd take them.

Aidan · 11 February 2007, 19:53

WE have the same level of tax over here.

What I cannot get over are the "Pinkos" on there bicycles who want their own lane and want all traffic moved out of Dublin.

They pay no tax at all and in my opinion have no say in what happens on our roads. I also humbly suggest that they should all have mandetory insurance.
Have you ever seen someone been hit by a bike at speed. Even hitting the car side on will destroy a panel and all you get back at best is Sorry as they cycle off and youc left with destroyed panel wondering should you feel lucky cos you know the courts will do you just because they know that the cuclist has no money and is a pinko who begrudges us in our suv's because they are too bloody mean to run a car.

Biggles · 11 February 2007, 20:05

I would love to use my push bike more but here we don't have any proper cycle paths. A 12 year old lad was killed on 2 Jan this year on a traffic calming part of the road the council in its infinate wisdom had decided to narrow recently.
If the council would build cycle paths away from the road through towns I bet loads of people would use them. All we get instead are bits of the road painted red with a white line. The roads aren't any bigger no wonder motorists are hacked off. I would even cycle on footpaths because very few people walk on them but you need a 4 X 4 on most of those.

Aidan · 11 February 2007, 20:19

Always sorry to hear of Kids getting Hurt,

If I could trust our bad roads which I cannot, I would have an easier time and maybe cycle myself but indeed let the Boys cycle to School and Rugby etc. All the Mummis are only driving them (fathers too) because we dont trust the roads systems.
If you are ona bike and come on a Pot hole (which we have many here 0) you have to swerve and the only way to do this and remain on the Bike is outwards into the traffic.... How can it possibly work!

It cannot...

BogMonster · 12 February 2007, 08:44

Number 10 has got around the problem of too many signatures.

"Sorry, but we weren't able to add your signature to the petition, because our site is extremely busy at the moment. Please try again in a few minutes' time."

About the last 30 times I have tried to sign it, still trying

Jimbo · 12 February 2007, 12:33

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6352957.stm

thorper · 12 February 2007, 14:37

The thing that has been handled badly is the communication from government, which as they probably havent worked out a lot of detail yet, they don't want to set expectation. As a result, the 'no more tax' and 'militant motorists' are banging their drums.

A few points to debate:

1) Road charging is most likely to be revenue neutral. Ie. scrapping the road tax and reducing fuel duty.

To break that apart:

Revenue neutral - this was what was going to happen for lorry road charging before it was put on hold pending the implementation of full road chargning (I worked on the technology part of this - it had the fringe benefit of foreign vehicles having to pay for ripping up our roads too). Road tax would have been removed too (commercial lorries claim fuel duty back from the government anyway).

2) By having flat rate taxes (road tax, fuel charge), people assume the right to use as they've paid for it. Most roads are a finite resource, weather we like it or not.

The most effective way to balance use of finite resources is to introduce a market, which in this case is road usage charging. (incidentally this is the same theory behind carbon offsetting)

3) The charge isnt the only thing that needs to happen, but it will be the catalyst for change. For example, schools and businesses would start to stagger working hours to help reduce/make charges more effective. This has worked in other cities.

The cost will have to offset the implementation and maintenance costs, which should be carefully run (unfortunately not something that the government has done well to date - possibly the biggest thing against it all).

4) Big brother complaints - the government knows pretty much everything about you already, so whats the worry? There are plenty of effective information controls already for all the data they do have, so why should this be any different? Speeding has been already taken out of the picture.

I'm all for road usage charging - it won't make anyone particularly poorer or richer, but will ensure that we can actually get around in the future.

codprawn · 12 February 2007, 14:44

We would get around a lot quicker if someone undid the deliberate mess Lanbour have created. There is a deliberate policy of messing up traffic flow to FORCE people to use pubic transport!!!

Our roads are getting busier - what has Labour done? Made roads narrower - closed off many roads - introduced speed humps and extra traffic lights.

You used to be able to turn left at most traffic lights as long as the coast was clear - they have closed off most of these left filters. London alone has introduced an EXTRA 14,000 traffic lights. And what about those "traffic calming measures" the ones where they put islands and other obstructions in the road?

Not to mention all the new bus lanes with no traffic in them and the closed off city centres etc etc.

And most people just sit there in traffic jams and say - "ah it's because of all the extra traffic" - if only they realised!!!

Searider · 12 February 2007, 17:13

I don't see what the "problem" is with congestion that the government keep banging on about.

Surely it's self regulating - if a journey takes too long at a particular time of day we are able to choose to modify when we make this journey, if at all.
We can make the choice to move closer to where we work if the traffic is a pain.

All road pricing will acheive is to enable those with the money to travel where and when they want, with the rest of us priced out of peak times and peak routes.

Biggles · 12 February 2007, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

We would get around a lot quicker if someone undid the deliberate mess Lanbour have created. There is a deliberate policy of messing up traffic flow to FORCE people to use pubic transport!!!

Our roads are getting busier - what has Labour done? Made roads narrower - closed off many roads - introduced speed humps and extra traffic lights.

You used to be able to turn left at most traffic lights as long as the coast was clear - they have closed off most of these left filters. London alone has introduced an EXTRA 14,000 traffic lights. And what about those "traffic calming measures" the ones where they put islands and other obstructions in the road?

Not to mention all the new bus lanes with no traffic in them and the closed off city centres etc etc.

And most people just sit there in traffic jams and say - "ah it's because of all the extra traffic" - if only they realised!!!

Codders I think you should put yourself up as a future 'Roads Minister'. I would vote for you !!

thorper · 12 February 2007, 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Searider

I don't see what the "problem" is with congestion that the government keep banging on about.

Surely it's self regulating - if a journey takes too long at a particular time of day we are able to choose to modify when we make this journey, if at all.
We can make the choice to move closer to where we work if the traffic is a pain.

All road pricing will acheive is to enable those with the money to travel where and when they want, with the rest of us priced out of peak times and peak routes.

The problem is that people are prepared to wait in traffic. When you actually put a financial value on it that can be felt then people actively make change for the better.

codprawn · 12 February 2007, 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

Codders I think you should put yourself up as a future 'Roads Minister'. I would vote for you !!

Nah not me - Clarkson instead - our views are so similar it's scary!!!

John Kennett · 12 February 2007, 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

Codders I think you should put yourself up as a future 'Roads Minister'. I would vote for you !!

I'll vote for Thorper!

John

Biggles · 12 February 2007, 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kennett

I'll vote for Thorper!

John

I could buy in to the Road Charging thing if we were told we would get a rebate elsewhere. Then I could believe it would be a means of influencing traffic use and not just another means of raising tax.

thorper · 12 February 2007, 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kennett

I'll vote for Thorper!

Thanks JK!!!

codprawn · 12 February 2007, 19:31

The problem with road taxing is that it can be so unfair. What happens if the only job you can find is 120 miles away?

I had a job for a while that involved me driving 2,000 miles a week - not from choice but beggars can't be choosers. ANY form of road pricing would have killed it.

By bringing in road pricing it means people can only look for work in a very limited area.

thorper · 12 February 2007, 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

By bringing in road pricing it means people can only look for work in a very limited area.

Not really true - people will have to think about the time and the way you go to work, and employers will have to take it into consideration. If the scheme is roughly revenue neutral, it will not cost you that much more. Ultimately if people really need money, they naturally find the most effective way to make it.