It let me down, Clutch, Flywheel, Both?

Nasher · 20 December 2009, 15:58

Sorry, a long post.

After 7 years of ownership, a hard life, 140,000 miles, lots of them towing the RIB, the faithful Shogun finally left me stranded on the hard shoulder last night.

It’s a 3.2 LWB TD that was only a few months old when I brought it, and I’ve been living on borrowed time with the original clutch for the last couple of years. Mind you I’m not sure it’s the clutch that’s gone even now.
It’s a bit annoying as it passed its MOT only last week with a recommendation to change the rear tyres soon, so I put 4 brand new ones on it.

Earlier in the day I noticed a slightly different noise on accelerating, but couldn’t find anything wrong so carried on with my busy schedule. Travelling along the A27 yesterday evening there was a slight ‘judder’ the revs rose, and I wasn’t getting any drive, so I pulled over onto the hard Shoulder.
I jumped out expecting a smell of fried friction material but there wasn’t any, so I jumped back in and tried to pull away, it crawled along for a few feet then lost drive and the revs rose again as if the clutch is completely buggered, even though it’s not been slipping at all recently. Strangely it almost feels like hitting a curb when the drive is lost, but that could just be me.

To cut a long story short.
Phoned the AA, told them I was stranded, no drive at all.
2.5 hours later a patrol man turned up and agreed with me.
Another hour later a low loader turned up and took me to the garage I use for MOTs about ½ a mile from my house.

Unfortunately even though I have changed clutches before on 4x4s, and my Shogun will go in my garage at home I only have about a foot of headroom to jack it up which won’t be enough, so I’m hoping the mechanics can do something for me sooner rather than later as I’m not doing it on the drive this time of year.

HOWEVER
I’ve been aware for a while that the Shogun is fitted with a Duel Mass Flywheel that can give up anywhere past 60,000 miles, but usually a bit more noisily than what I’ve experienced. It’s also been banging a bit at start up recently, which I’d put down to tired engine mount rubbers, but is apparently also a sign of Duel Mass Flywheel failure.

The trouble is a new one is £1500 from Mitsubishi, plus another £400 for the clutch.
Used ones are around for @£600, but they could go the same very soon.

The garage will obviously need to strip it down before I order anything and I'm hoping they can decide whats wrong quickly.
If the box is out I'll obviously get a clutch put in anyway.

I’m considering a kit sold by lots of different places, for @£1000, that replaces the flywheel with a solid one and includes all three parts of the clutch as well.

I understand that these kits are quite widely used on lots of vehicles to do away with the expensive Duel Mass Flywheels, has anyone first-hand experience of the conversion?

The whole thing is a complete nightmare as we’re broke as usual, and living on a steep hill we could do with the 4WD whilst the snow is about. We also have lots of long journeys to do over X-mas that we’ll have to do in Mrs Nashers Astra, which is at least cheaper to run.

Nasher.

Hightower · 20 December 2009, 21:14

Sorry to hear of your problems Nasher.

I can't help you with the experience of fitting a conversion kit but am curious to know what a Duel Mass Flywheel is and how it works. I'm assuming it's along the lines of a fluid type used in Auto's but I'm guessing here.

chris123 · 20 December 2009, 21:24

There is a good description of dual mass flywheels, and the potential pitfalls of replacing with a solid flywheel here:

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/po...ex.htm?t=61626

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/po...tm?t=56785&v=f

Cheers

Chris

Hightower · 20 December 2009, 22:07

Cheers Chris, I had a look on my Trooper forums after looking at your links and it seems that these DMF failers are very common if the clutch is slipping at all as it has to work much harder. Perhaps this is what's happened to Nashers Shogun?

I don't know if my Trooper is fitted with one being a 3.1TDI (low tech engine) but after putting in a search lots of Trooper 3.0 TD's came up. So fingers crossed mine hasn't got one to go wrong.

Hope your local Garage can get it sorted quickly Nasher.

Matt · 20 December 2009, 23:09

Is the shogun still a rebadged pajero?
Have you checked the forum on the Pajero Owners Club site? http://www.pocuk.com

biffer · 21 December 2009, 07:47

morning nasher, we used to find it easier taken the engine out to do a clutch on the range rovers, no wrestling underneath with all that 4x4 lot, would it be better for you?

Chris · 21 December 2009, 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris123

There is a good description of dual mass flywheels, and the potential pitfalls of replacing with a solid flywheel here:

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/po...ex.htm?t=61626

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/po...tm?t=56785&v=f

Cheers

Chris

There have been reports of problems with solid flywheel kits. These engines have had their harmonics tuned to use a DMF - without one, there have been unwanted side-effects like cam-belts fretting and failing from "crank chatter."

Nasher · 21 December 2009, 09:41

Thanks for the sympathies guys.

I’ve done a bit of research, some of which was on the Pajero Forum as I’m a member there.

I’ve decided not to take the risk with a solid flywheel, it could completely ruin the driving experience, and take out the gearbox.

Last night I was again considering doing it myself, but it would be so cramped in my garage, and doing it on the drive is a complete non starter in this weather, so it’s staying at the local garage. Mitsubishi apparently quote it as a 6 hour job, which is a lot less than I thought, so the labour content won’t be as high as I expected.

When I was explaining what had happened to the mechanic this morning he said Duel Mass Flywheel as soon as I described what happened.

They are good guys, and are currently looking around to see what sort of deal they can get on a pattern flywheel and clutch. I’ve explained that I need a reasonable quality replacement as it’s not a school run vehicle.

From what I’ve seen the flywheel can give up anywhere after 60K miles, and sometimes sooner if abused, so in reality 140K miles on the original clutch and flywheel with lots of towing isn’t something I can really complain about.

Nasher

biffer · 21 December 2009, 10:16

well all i can say to that is merry christmas

Nasher · 21 December 2009, 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by biffer

well all i can say to that is merry christmas

Thanks Biff, that was exactly my thoughts.

Never mind though, the Credit Card company has loads of money

Nasher

paul tilley · 22 December 2009, 09:15

Nasher apply online for a new credit card with interest free credit for 6 to 9months on new purchases ,dont transfer old credit card debt to it ,pay it off monthly within the time limit and you have an interest free loan

Nasher · 22 December 2009, 11:35

Paul

Hi, don't worry I'm wise to that one

It's worth remembering that as soon as its served it's purpose you must cancel cards used in this way so that you can start the process again with the same provider after a short break.

Nasher

Nasher · 22 December 2009, 12:02

In the end I decided that the clutch is too important to scrimp on in a car that’s used to tow the RIB reasonable distances at times, and of course on slipways.

So I gave the go ahead to the local guys to order branded parts and do the work, particularly as they believe it’s only a 4 hour job.

Using pattern parts of, Dual mass Flywheel, 3 piece clutch kit, new slave cylinder, fluids etc, and including the 4hrs labour, the bill should come to £2499.81
Using genuine Mitsubishi parts would have added a lot to that.

I could even have it back before Christmas.

If they stick to their word, as they’ve done in the past, I’ll post their details as a recommendation.

As another great example of ‘our’ community Rib.net, I’d like to thank the people who have offered to lend me cars for a short while.
From very good friends, to people who are just acquaintances, I’d like to say how grateful I am for the offers, and that they’ve gone a little way to restoring my faith in human nature.

Nasher.

ollyit · 22 December 2009, 13:51

nice one mate, hope you get a good result!

happy xmas

Hightower · 22 December 2009, 18:27

Just out of interest Nasher, why would using the Shogun on a slipway burn or wear the clutch? I just stick my car into Low Ratio and take my foot of the clutch at tickover. She's a bit slow, but never fails to impress me how she climbs, towing my RIB up that crappy little slip that I use.

Knot Yet 2 · 22 December 2009, 21:56

If it helps at all, I fitted a Land Rover clutch without engine or clutch removal in 8 hours!?!?
New one cost me 90 quid

Nasher · 29 December 2009, 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hightower

Just out of interest Nasher, why would using the Shogun on a slipway burn or wear the clutch? I just stick my car into Low Ratio and take my foot of the clutch at tickover. She's a bit slow, but never fails to impress me how she climbs, towing my RIB up that crappy little slip that I use.

Just coz it's more than 'normal' driving conditions.
I've only ever used LR for recovery when I've actually been using a gravel or sand beach as a slipway, mind you last time I tried it at Hayling Island both car axles and both trailer axles sunk into the gravel/sand mix and I had to use the rear and centre diff locks as well to get the rig out.

As an update to the clutch story the local garage did put a new DM Flywheel and clutch in for me, but connected up all the electronics to the box wrong so the ECU got confused and didn't want to play.

As a slight silver lining to this story, I did discover a new Independant Mitsubishi dealer in Portsmouth that has all the Mitsubishi diagnostic equipment.
They plugged the car in, jacked it up, and swapped the plugs around all in the space of 10 mins early on Christmas eve morning, and didn't even want to charge me for it as it was only 10 mins.
Needless to say they were £40 better off in cash before I left.

They are good guys that charge £45 per hour, appear to know what they are doing and don't just work on Mitsubishis, but as both are fully trained up Main dealer Mitsubishi mechanics they know Shoguns, Pajeros, Evos very well.

http://www.mitsiart.co.uk/ is their website.

Nasher.

Hightower · 29 December 2009, 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nasher

Just coz it's more than 'normal' driving conditions.
I've only ever used LR for recovery when I've actually been using a gravel or sand beach as a slipway, mind you last time I tried it at Hayling Island both car axles and both trailer axles sunk into the gravel/sand mix and I had to use the rear and centre diff locks as well to get the rig out.

Nasher.

I always use LR on a steepish slip as I always thought that Towing the weight of the RIB up in HR would put unessesary strain on the engine, clutch etc.

Carl · 29 December 2009, 18:29

i always keep mine in 2 wheel high,because i like to clean the slip way every time i use it,and lay some fresh rubber for the next punter