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Old 04 January 2016, 03:27   #21
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I could not agree with JW more.

We have fitted wireless kill cords to two vessels of this type which operate basically single handed. They have a conventional kill cord too. They have an override. Skipper takes his choice.

They are nothing more than a MOB alarm system (choose you're flavour) coupled with a relay into the kill cord circuit.

I too am interested to see what the OP comes up with.
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Old 04 January 2016, 04:00   #22
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Consider the humble corkscrew

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corkscrew

The first design was simple and elegant, it did the job. It's not stopped hundreds of new designs all attempting to improve that. Who knows one may 👍
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Old 04 January 2016, 04:30   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwalker View Post
Ah, well, consider this; you're single handed in your cabin rib... ...after epirbing the coastguard!
There was a young man from Nantucket,
Who fell out with some sh*t in a bucket,
Like a truly pro boater,
He hung on to a floater,
Who needs a kill cord? "Oh f**k it!"
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Old 04 January 2016, 04:36   #24
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But if you were thinking of re-designing a corkscrew, and posted a suggestion on a website would you want the collective community to all say...

"Oh yes sir, we really need a new cork removal device because I don't like the current ones" or would you rather they said "Actually sir, the bit that screws into the cork does not a a bad job but here are the things you could improve:

- you can over screw it and get floaters in the vino
- you can under screw it and it pulls out rather than pulling the cork out
- Sometimes pulling it out is really card work"

Or of course you could just buy wine with a screw top!

What the collective are saying is - if you spend the next few weeks/months designing, building and testing something even for your own use here are the things we think may be hard to replicate in an electronic setting that can be achieved with the current tech. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water and all that.

You may want to look at this thread on a WAFI forum:
YAPP idea - MOB alert system

(If you think this place is full of wierdo's its nothing compared to YBW! He ran into trouble with the site / others feeling that what he was doing was of a commercial nature. It probably wasn't but because there was money changing hands it looked like it was. But it was a low tech bluetooth system that created an alarm on loss of contact.)
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Old 04 January 2016, 05:10   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinyShoe View Post
You may want to look at this thread on a WAFI forum:
YAPP idea - MOB alert system
A failure of such a system could conceivably lead to a loss of life and therefore should be designed, developed and tested accordingly. Would you be prepared to stake a life (yours or that of another party) on an open-source 'DIY' system that only costs a few quid? I wouldn't, nor would I tout any such design - the come-back of any failures could be huge. I haven't read the whole thread but for the prices quoted I can only imagine it to be a cheapo processor and one of the cheap Chinese bluetooth modules.

What about:
  • Environmental tests (heat / water / vibration, etc.,)?
  • Safety analyses? What if it doesn't work? What if it functions when not required? What if it functions incorrectly?
  • Testing every possible decision that the software can make? Is the software deterministic?
  • The effects of EMI on a boat or around other vessels (potentially with high power radio / radar, other bluetooth devices, etc.,)?
  • Reliability of components?
  • Are the cheapo modules all the same or are some poorly functioning rip-offs?
  • Operation when adjacent to other vessels with identical/similar systems?
  • Making sure it still all works when the 'open source' code is tinkered with?
  • Do the terms of use of the components / software / software development environments allow their use for life-dependant functions (I bet they don't)?
  • Who would do any repairs?

Hugh
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Old 04 January 2016, 19:41   #26
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Hugh, my gut feel to reading the OP was somewhat similar - however its worth considering the following points:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HughN View Post
A failure of such a system could conceivably lead to a loss of life
No it wouldn't. Falling overboard would lead to a loss of life. Anyone who relies on any device (whether a piece of curly red string or a fancy gizmo) to be 100% reliable is asking for trouble.
Quote:
What about:
  • Environmental tests (heat / water / vibration, etc.,)?
  • Safety analyses? What if it doesn't work? What if it functions when not required? What if it functions incorrectly?
  • Testing every possible decision that the software can make? Is the software deterministic?
  • The effects of EMI on a boat or around other vessels (potentially with high power radio / radar, other bluetooth devices, etc.,)?
  • Reliability of components?
  • Are the cheapo modules all the same or are some poorly functioning rip-offs?
  • Operation when adjacent to other vessels with identical/similar systems?
  • Making sure it still all works when the 'open source' code is tinkered with?
  • Do the terms of use of the components / software / software development environments allow their use for life-dependant functions (I bet they don't)?
  • Whilst most of those points are perfectly valid, the point you seem to be making is a bold assumption that because there is a well known brand on the box any "professional" solution has 100% reliably been through the above sort of processes. Everyone knows real products DO fail in real life, and if that were to be at a critical moment your warranty is not going to be much use.
    Quote:
  • Who would do any repairs?
  • presumably with a very low cost device it could be throw away!
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Old 05 January 2016, 03:06   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HughN View Post
A failure of such a system could conceivably lead to a loss of life and therefore should be designed, developed and tested accordingly. Would you be prepared to stake a life (yours or that of another party) on an open-source 'DIY' system that only costs a few quid?
My curly red cord cost a few quid. Should I go find a more expensive one?

Quote:
I wouldn't, nor would I tout any such design - the come-back of any failures could be huge.
Not sure if you meant I was touting it or the YBW thread was. I'm not sure referring someone to a thread that both discusses pro's and con's of a system is touting it.
Quote:
I haven't read the whole thread but for the prices quoted I can only imagine it to be a cheapo processor and one of the cheap Chinese bluetooth modules.
It uses a bluetooth module that is almost certainly made in China, and is probably cheap. I suspect so do a lot of things.
It uses an arduino processor. Your point is?
Quote:
What about:[LIST][*]Environmental tests (heat / water / vibration, etc.,)?
So I believe they were planning to put it in some recognised IP rated enclosures. They were also looking at its use on a yacht, in a cabin where things were more protected than a RIB. And until a protype is built you'll never know...
Quote:
[*]Safety analyses? What if it doesn't work? What if it functions when not required? What if it functions incorrectly?
Indeed - and had you read the thread you'd see they were proposing it as an alarm based system that may or may not have the ability to cut an engine off. Yachts travel at a lot slower speeds and far easier to loose someone overboard by accident.

So the fail safe as I understood it was loss of bluetooth signal from a unit generated an alarm. How you design that system to cope an alarm is up to you.
Quote:
[*]Testing every possible decision that the software can make? Is the software deterministic?
The basic design as I understand it was lost signal generate alarm. That was it. There were people who wanted to advance that and kill the engine. If I was designing it on a yacht I'd want a delay from alarm to engine kill. So instantly alarm on loss of bluetooth connection. Wait 1 minute for an acknowledgement if none kill engine... something along those lines.
Plus the option to alarm from a button (being dragged along on a lifeline is a major concern of many yachties)
Quote:
[*]The effects of EMI on a boat or around other vessels (potentially with high power radio / radar, other bluetooth devices, etc.,)?
Build it and test it - only way you'll know. But any proprietry solution will be no different. They'll have tested near some radar etc. But not your Radar, not you radar parked next to someone elses radar and 18 iPhones on the gin palace next door.
Quote:
[*]Reliability of components?
If its designed to fail safe is it that big a deal? Low cost afterall.
How reliable are all the industry bits of kit? We see plenty of "my plotter broke, my VHF broke" posts on here
Quote:
[*]Are the cheapo modules all the same or are some poorly functioning rip-offs?
Up to end user to test.
Quote:
[*]Operation when adjacent to other vessels with identical/similar systems?
could be designed out very easily with a suitably unique serial number.
Quote:
[*]Making sure it still all works when the 'open source' code is tinkered with?
The code on the device is stored. Once its on, its on. No-one can change that without plugging it back into a programmer.
So devise a test procedure (it shouldn't be that hard!) test it. Let people fiddle with the code online all they want, it wont affect your tested set up. Upload a new version of code - re-test.
Quote:
[*]Do the terms of use of the components / software / software development environments allow their use for life-dependant functions (I bet they don't)?
Do I care? The components is about manufacturers not taking liability. The software - The GPL licence for software doesn't prevent their use.
Quote:
[*] Who would do any repairs?
Whomever built it, or indeed unlike proprietry kit - anyone who has the documentation!

People need to UNDERSTAND the differences between DIY and proprietry, People need to UNDERSTAND that to market a DIY product into a proprietry will have a lot of costs over and above the cost of goods. (testing, quality assurance, marketing?, insurance, liability).

My point in linking the post was there has already been a fairly extensive discussion of some of these issues on that thread. The exact end user requirements are probably different, but maybe not 1million miles different to use it as a basis for working from?

Finally as poly says there are commercial solutions, but I've not seen one that would let me:

- switch between a SH and multi-user mode of operation where you want may different things to happen.
- activate a distress message (EPIRB, AIS, DSC) AND do something else on the boat like kill an engine
- make sure I had it in activated and in my pocket at the criticial time.
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Old 05 January 2016, 11:38   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willk View Post
JW, I'm hugely impressed with your ability to conjure up crazy imaginary scenarios....

At least I think it's imagined. Unfortunately I can't erase the mental imagery...
Well I usually only post about things I have experience or firsthand knowledge of.....I'll let you decide on this one! Hehe....

I actually started to build a unit similar to the OP's idea because I was mostly boating single handed or responsible for crew with limited ability, I got it working but something got in the way and I never turned it into a full boaty solution. I based it around a small device designed to let a parent know when a child had gone outwith a certain radius. It was intended to stop transmitting once in the water and a relay in the boat would trigger the diesel engine stop solenoid. A spare transmitter on board could be switched on and the boat engine would restart.
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Old 05 January 2016, 11:45   #29
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Originally Posted by Pikey Dave View Post
If I had a cabin RIB, I wouldn't be reduced to dropping the kids off into a bucket...........
You might be surprised how pleasant it is sitting out back of cabin surveying the scene for a while.....
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Old 05 January 2016, 12:09   #30
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You might be surprised how pleasant it is sitting out back of cabin surveying the scene for a while.....

I find the space between the A frame & engine quite cosy, plus plenty of handholds😄
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