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Old 13 December 2011, 14:07   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willk View Post
This comment may confuse some readers. I guess you refer to "old school" non injection 2-strokes, but others may not realise this.

Obviously, manufacturers still produce and sell 2 stroke direct injection engines. Again, it's the emissions that are banned, not the technology...
Don't be confusing 9d280 with your new fangled direct injection malarky; his idea of modern is 1:50 premix and autolube is exotic. Still one of them fancy shiny storm troopers would look out of place on the back of his boat!
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Old 14 December 2011, 02:29   #32
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re 9d280 comment of

"So, to save 1066L/year (1332.50) He'd be spending 6k. Or put another way a 4.5 years to break even. And that with a fairly hefty use for a leisure boat. If he's only out every other weekend that's a 9 year payback! "

Sorry this is rubbish and miles out and this is shown in 2 ways

1: we dont get people in the shop wanting an old smelling fuel drinking 2 stroke. we do get people wanting to trade up from these, but none trading down

2. His maths above was great apart from missing half the sum out.

value of 2nd hand engine after 4 years IF it is still running circa 200-300.
Value of a 2nd hand honda with the above low hours still under warranty ( 2 years left) around 3k
If you were v v unlucky in the Honda then you would get FREE warranty repairs. Odds of this happening with the old 2 stroke well I think we can all make our our mind up about this so.......

The maths

if we take even a silly figure of saying the honda is only worth 3k at 4 years old and the 2 stroke 500

You then get 8k new - 2k for the 2 stroke = down 6k - differnce in the 2nd hand values making it 4.5K extra to buy the 4 stroke that still has 2 years warranty after teh 4 years of use!

based on his sums of saving 1332.50 per year then payback is 3.37 years. Remember this also does not take into account any problems with the 2 stroke.

This is then a simpple choice based on his figures of

1: 2 stroke , v old not sure when it will break down and based on petrol prices of today ( remember how much they have gone up in the last 4 years) needs oil added but is cheaper to buy

2:buy a shiny new honda that drinks a lot less fuel ( prices will keep going up), has a 2nd hand value, free repairs IF needed for 6 years so would have 2 years warranty left even if sold after 4 years, no oil mixing, more reliable.

Option 2
Your other option is to buy a 2nd hand 4 stroke under warranty i.e. for 3-4k afer 4 years as above we are comparing a 2nd 2stroke with new engine and not 2nd hand with 2nd hand.

if you did this at 4k for the 4 stroke,based on his figures the payback would be less than 2 years for the extra 2K outlay. You also have no oil to mix and have an engine that still gets FREE repairs as it is under warranty. oh and if we take the resale value of these into account we get

max 500 for the 2 stroke
4 stroke 6 years old 2K ( yes it would be more but lets run with the low figure to help the 2 stroke out) so

This would mean that if you sold the 2nd hand 2 stroke and 4 stroke after the 4 years we have a difference of only 500.00. Payback on this 0.4 of a year and the 2nd hand 4 stroke is under warranty unlike the 2 stroke.

So even if you half the usage above and you buy a 2nd hand 4 stroke under warranty compared to an old 2 stroke the payback is less than 1 year based on fuel prices not going up and the old 2 stroke not breaking down over the 4 years!!!.

Dave
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Old 14 December 2011, 05:14   #33
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OK, real world snapshots:

My merc - Bought for your resale value, approx 1k of bits added due to previous ownere @rsing with the spark advance. I now have an as new engine for approx 1300. Granted it's an old tec premix. Servicing costs: Fuel pump diaphragm, impeller, a gearbox full of oil and 30 mins of my time once a year.

The Honda with it's 6 year warranty will require that + an engine oil change. I also assume it would need dealer serviced to keep the warranty valid? How much is a dealer service?

Let's be realistic - 2k for a 2- stroke isn't what you or anyone would pay for an oily smelly premix machine from 1972. It's a late model autolube with low hours & lots of TLC. That engine will not have lost 1800 in 4 years (abuse notwithstanding)

The 200 engine is the sort of tat I have fun rebuilding. So far I have bought two sub 100 engines, thrown between 20 - 200 of bits at them, used for a year or so and sold on for a bit more than the cost of the bits + the engine. Another two I have sold for what I bought them for.

Moral of the story: Be wary when making assumptions on the resale value of museum pieces!


Another reason I like 2-stroke - If you can find me a nice quiet clean 4- stroke (or new tech 2- stroke!) 60Hp at or around the 85Kg mark I'd be very interested in swapping. Put this in perspective: the trusty Yam 60 Autolube is right on the limit for my transom. (and I still want to hang an aux.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by clydeoutboards View Post
We need to disagree for the first time on this one.
As we have both now thrown enough at the thread that it's beginning to go round in circles, I think we should probably agree to disagree.

As we are also likely to find ourselves in the same pub by a pier sometime and I'd rather be talking ribnet banter over a glass of something than glaring at each other through the smoke from my engine* acoss the room!


Bottom line is the old tech 2-stroke works for me. 4 stroke works for you. They both push our boats along in a way that suits us. Let's all get back to answering Chris' questions so he can decide what's best for him.






* It's not that bad, honest!
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Old 14 December 2011, 05:21   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willk View Post
This comment may confuse some readers. I guess you refer to "old school" non injection 2-strokes, but others may not realise this.

Obviously, manufacturers still produce and sell 2 stroke direct injection engines. Again, it's the emissions that are banned, not the technology...
What? they have computers in engines now????

Yes, that was a particularly non specific comment. I was referring to Pre Euro 1 engines.


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Originally Posted by Polwart View Post
Don't be confusing 9d280 with your new fangled direct injection malarky; his idea of modern is 1:50 premix and autolube is exotic. !
Aye, it was the pile of coal in the bow that ruined my performance before I got the merc.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polwart View Post
Still one of them fancy shiny storm troopers would look out of place on the back of his boat!
It'll be fine once I get round to sorting out the toobs!
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Old 14 December 2011, 05:24   #35
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What? they have computers in engines now????
aye, and the best ones probably have a faster internet connection than your dial up!
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Old 14 December 2011, 06:45   #36
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aye, and the best ones probably have a faster internet connection than your dial up!
Two yoghurt pots & a bit of string would be faster that that!
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