The best big Four stroke

[CJL]

I think that most people on this forum do not actually do enough hours over the life of their outboard engine to recover the additional cost (at purchase and on going maintenance costs) of buying a four stroke over a two stroke.

Commercially there is not much point in it either as petrol in a 2 or 4 stroke is minus the duty so the advantages are even less.

The residual values are not wildly different either.

As far as economy goes there is nothing it now. I've seen a 135hp Optimax vs an EFI 135hp four stroke vs a 135hp traditional 2 stroke on the identical boats on the same day. Only the traditional 135 2 stroke had a measurable difference in the amount of fuel used.

Don't kid your self that there is a major difference any more!

[Mollers]

So why are so many guys still still hell bent on having four strokes?

[Roy Smith]

I would love to see some figures on residual values
I spoke to a dealer who sells both 2 and 4 strokes and it seams that the 2 strokes are worked harder than 4 (in 90% of cases) due to the boy racer image instant throttle response etc. thats not my view.
I wont give names with out permission but thats what he said.
I do agree that most Rib owners wont do the hours but i do.

[CJL]

Originally Posted by Mollulnan

So why are so many guys still still hell bent on having four strokes?

Cause the marketing for some manufacturers is very biased (they only sell 4 strokes!)

You cannot blame them really!

Most engine retailers will tell you for the average pleasure boat its just not worth the extra outlay to have a four stroke if you catch them drunk and in an honest mood!

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by CJL

Cause the marketing for some manufacturers is very biased (they only sell 4 strokes!)

You cannot blame them really!

Most engine retailers will tell you for the average pleasure boat its just not worth the extra outlay to have a four stroke if you catch them drunk and in an honest mood!

So are four stoke owners mugs?

[CJL]

Originally Posted by Mollulnan

So are four stoke owners mugs?

I would not go as far as that but;

its the Mr Average Boater that are failing for either not getting all their facts straight before buying or not getting the correct advice from the retailer.

Four strokes have one main advantage - they don't coke up when used for trolling speeds. But most recreational boat users don't want that characteristic. If anybody knows of another reason that is clearly not do-able by a modern 2 stroke let me know.

Four strokes when they were introduced by Honda (who only make 4 strokes now) they were billed as the future and a long period has now passed since that was the case, but the public perception has remained. HDPI 2 strokes engines have re-invented themselves and are billing themselves as the way forward but if you make 4 strokes as well your not going to say that they are pants are you? You'll potentially do yourself out of buisness. The public perception is also developing and there will eventually be a reversal.

Well thats my opinion anyway!

Chris

[Roy Smith]

The man i spoke to was a yamaha dealer
I believe they sell 2 and 4 strokes, When i asked him what he would have on his own boat he said long term a 225 four stroke Yam.as the new 250 where not yet proven
Thats good enough for me.
Last Christmas we where away on holiday the hotel had two ski boats with 140 Suzuki four strokes they had changed from two strokes due to the deal the leasing company gave them it seams that after 3 years or 3000 hours the resale was so much higher to the leasing company overall the costs where less to the hotel .
Any way who cares there will allway be lovers of both types and as we spend our own money on what we want i suppose its irellevant, I mean why would a pleasure boat/Rib owner buy a 5.5 mts rib with diesel engine?

[Mollers]

Now there's another whole thread. If the fuel were the same price who'd want a small diesel boat? Very few people.

[Mollers]

[QUOTE=Roy Smith] The man i spoke to was a yamaha dealer
I believe they sell 2 and 4 strokes, When i asked him what he would have on his own boat he said long term a 225 four stroke Yam.as the new 250 where not yet proven
I wouldn't take that as gospel. He would be getting discounts on the older models but have to pay full trade for the latest engines. Business is business.

[Rogue Wave]

There is a lot of Happy Ribeye owners out there with four strokes

I gave up arguing the case for hp injection 2 Strokes over 4 cos nobody's gonna shell out on a new engine and say I should have bought a two stroke really!

It really is a question of what you want! Also while we are on the subject of 4 strokes what are the relevant warranties like with Suzi, Yam, Honda and Verado's. What length are they and do they cover commercial use!

On that basis it is difficult to argue against a Honda (apart from power to weight) as it comes with a five year warranty.

With commercial engines does the life expectancy matter much? Can you not depreciate them over a three year period, which covers the Opti / Etec Warranty period

Finally who makes who's engines!

[jwalker]

Isn't the current move to 4 stroke engines by some manufacturers an attempt to adhere to future emission legislation which they fear they are not going to manage to do with 2 stroke motors?

[rama]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

Finally who makes who's engines!

[Roy Smith]

Great point. They even make a honda Four stroke garden strimer re the emissions thing.

[Brambles]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Isn't the current move to 4 stroke engines by some manufacturers an attempt to adhere to future emission legislation which they fear they are not going to manage to do with 2 stroke motors?

JW,

That's what I always thought as well. I have done a quick Google & can't find a clear explanation of the future legislation.

What I do know however is that the 'rude Etec 2 stroke engines were the first ever designed to meet 2006 EPA, European Union (EU) and 2008 California Air Resources Board three star ultra-low emissions standards. If 2 stroke efficiency continues to improve then surely they will meet future legislation?

As for Roy's comment about Honda strimmers - well, they would say that wouldn't they? After all, Honda committed themselves to 4 strokes many years ago and perhaps feels the need to justify their stance. They used to claim that their 4 stroke outboards were 50% more fuel efficient that the equivalent 2 stroke. Having had experience of a BF225 & 250 Etec on the same boat I can confirm that this is complete bollox...

Just my thoughts.

Regards

Ian

[hard1]

Originally Posted by Brambles

JW,


What I do know however is that the 'rude Etec 2 stroke engines were the first ever designed to meet 2006 EPA, European Union (EU) and 2008 California Air Resources Board three star ultra-low emissions standards. If 2 stroke efficiency continues to improve then surely they will meet future legislation?


Just my thoughts.

Regards

Ian

Codprawn will no doubt find the right page for you and post it - I can hear him panting from here. As for meeting future legislation, I think you're probably right but they will continue to move the goal posts on emissions making it hard if not impossible for any 2 stroke to meet the constantly evolving requirements. However, if they can find a way to avoid any oil being burnt with fuel whilst keeping the essence of 2 stroke ICE then yippeee! The fat lady may stop singing....

Without wishing to stir anything up, I wonder how far in the future it will be before they come down hard on leisure boating anyway as regards emissions. Politicians will no doubt be trying to score cheap points in the global warming feeding frenzy and they may shy away from Chesea tractors in favour of soft targets, but not to worry, we'll all have our lead booted inclined car engines on the back by then.

[Brambles]

Originally Posted by hard1

I think you're probably right but they will continue to move the goal posts on emissions making it hard if not impossible for any 2 stroke to meet the constantly evolving requirements. However, if they can find a way to avoid any oil being burnt with fuel whilst keeping the essence of 2 stroke ICE then yippeee! The fat lady may stop singing....

The manufacturers of 2 strokes are trying to, and may well have succeeded, in moving the goal posts in their favour for the time being. The way they see it is that the past calculations were not a true reflection of the "whole of life" emissions of 4 stroke engines. As you mention, 2 strokes burn oil into the atmosphere whereas 4 strokes (usually) don't. As far as I understand the EPA now include an "environmental cost" for disposing of the sump oil from a 4 stroke when the make a comparison.

Seems fair enough to me

[DJL]

Looking at engine specs over the last few months I’ve found it quite hard to make sense of it all on paper.

The weight difference is so minimal its almost non existent, and in some cases 4-strokes are lighter. Take the Yamaha F150 and HPDI 150 - they weigh the same and a 140 Suzuki weighs less than an opti 135. The weight difference is more manufacturer dependant than whether the engine is 2 or 4 stroke

The price difference isn't that great these days either. Again taking Yamaha as an example there is only about £300 between F and HPDI.

So what about fuel economy - most of the test reports I have seen generally put 4-strokes slightly ahead, but not by much. Performance wise there’s not much difference either, although 2 strokes do seem to have a slight advantage here. Interestingly though several sources seem to indicate higher top speeds are achieved with 4 strokes – which is exactly what happened when I changed from a 60 2/ to 4/.

So what am I going to put on my next boat? A Yamaha four stroke. Why? They're quiet, they don't smell of burning oil, I like lots of mid range torque, don’t need to worry about oil, I like the colour and they have nice digital instrumentation.

[hard1]

Yeah but the smell of an Opti on a summer morn....phew...even Rovert Duval would have got off on that.

It's gonna be sorely missed - ask any Opti owner.