Reliability....aux engine....or not???

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by HUMBER P4VWL

It's tiring reading his dissertations...

Sorry, I've been doing my mind control thing again. I'll stop forcing you to read all Poly's posts...

[miccheck1516]

Originally Posted by willk

Local station/s are about 8-10 minutes from pager to first comms underway. The RNLI are currently upgrading their all weather fleet to a minimum of 25kts, up from 17/18kts. They always think about improving.

That's exactley my point, they are spending literally millions in making faster all weather boats, not in trying to increase muster times.

Yes, they allways think about improving, but they make gains where there are gains to be made....

[Poly]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

I get the point your trying to make, and agree that having an auxillary engine is a good idea, but what i've quoted above is just laughable.

Essentially your suggesting lifeboats do 5 knots.

Of course not knowing where you are and being lost is allways a possibility, but an auxillary engine is utterly useless then anyway as you don't know where to go....

I think where you do your boating is the biggest factor here. I'd probobly not bother with one down the solent on a busy day, as I know there would be plenty of people about, up the west coast of scotland however would be a differant story.

Willk's already explained it - but 20 miles from nearest safe haven you are likely in AWB territory.

time 00:00 - you call MCA
Time 00:03 - pagers activated (I think that might actually be optimistic - there is a protocol).
Time 00:12 - AWB crewed and ready for launch. (I think RNLI suggest 10 mins is average)
Time 01:52 - arrive on scene (assuming 30 miles from nearest station if you are 20 miles from nearest harbour) and MAX speed 18 knots.
Time 02:00 - rig tow and begin return
Time 04:00 - arrive at nearest harbour assuming tow speed of 10 knots.

The point is if you are 20 miles from harbour you are a long time waiting for help.

[mister p]

To my mind it's like having a spare tyre and leaving it at home because you haven't had a puncture before and you'd rather have the boot space. Each to their own.

[miccheck1516]

Originally Posted by Poly

Willk's already explained it

Yeah, he did, haha, I was just reading others complain about your essays! Im sorry to say I get their point, the succint thing was good!

Your timings for paging are pretty spot on by the way.

[Ian_st]

Is it not a case of you assess your individual risk and make a personal judgement based on the days circumstances.

For me the setup is new, and has worked well, am a fine weather boater so the sea state is normally slight, and normally go out less than 3 miles from harbour with friends in their boat (normally not always) so feel an auxiliary is not required.

In the past have been out in poor conditions and turned around for safety based on personal preference, as the state can change very quickly and if on your own may be asking for trouble.

[willk]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

That's exactley my point, they are spending literally millions in making faster all weather boats, not in trying to increase muster times.

Yes, they allways think about improving, but they make gains where there are gains to be made....

Where I most often boat, from calling it in to having a helo overhead is about 60mins...

A 10 minute "pager to underway" muster time is astonishing, considering that those crew are at home or at work when the pager goes off. Think about your own launch times and compare to an ILB team:
0 minutes - you're eating dinner at home
10 minutes - you're doing 34kts in an 85
Hats off to those guys. In ten minutes, the helo is only getting warmed up and the crew live "on station".

[Poly]

Originally Posted by willk

0 minutes - you're eating dinner at home
10 minutes - you're doing 34kts in an 85

Hang on are you saying Dan will be there in 10 minutes even if he's got food in front of him?

[Dan Gurney]

This one always shits me up.

I am by nature the cautious type and am naturally inclined towards a wing, but there's just no room on my transom (Humber Attaque aka Ocean Pro 5.3 2m beam).

Anyone else got an exciting way around this?

[BogMonster]

Originally Posted by HUMBER P4VWL

If you go offshore, the aux is pretty pointless anyway. If you are near where others/lifeboats are you should be fine.

Only advantage to an aux really is to keep you from drifting on to rocks etc in rough weather. I mean you are hardly going to go 20 miles with an aux!

Disagree, as probably the remotest boater here and with NO lifeboat cover in this part of the world, I wouldn't be without mine much outside the harbour but especially offshore. The prevailing wind in this part of the world is usually offshore from our side of the islands, which means if you're lucky you'll hit Africa in about 4000 miles, if you miss that then you might hit Australia but the next confirmed landfall is the west coast of Chile which is about 13000 miles. Give me 20 miles at 4 knots any day

[willk]

Originally Posted by Poly

Hang on are you saying Dan will be there in 10 minutes even if he's got food in front of him?

No, he'll be "there" in about three minutes if he's at home when the pager goes. Typical launch time for them is "feet wet" nine minutes after the pager goes, first moving comms at ten minutes. I've been at a station 3 or 4 times by chance and seen it happen - it's very impressive...

[spartacus]

I'll throw in my tuppence worth.

I agree an auxilliary engine on anything but bigger boats can be a pain. They rattle (unless you strap 'em down), take up space and add weight, and chances are will rarely be used.

On the other side, its very, very reassuring to know you have some means of propulsion should things go wrong. Yes, there's VHF... but even that isn't a guarantee if you're in a remote location or there are no other boats out (I'm thinking west coast here).

I've fitted auxilliary engines to a couple of my ribs over the years, first a Tohatsu 3.5 on a Zodiac Pro 7-Man, and now a Mariner 4hp on my Ribcraft 4.8m. Frankly I wouldn't be without an auxilliary now.

As has been mentioned before, even new engines or reliable engines can fail. in addition - I can think of numerous situations (including ones I've witnessed or had near misses with) which can disable your main engine, regardless of condition or reliability, including:

1/ Lobster pot marker buoys (wraps around prop and strips rubber bush)
2/ Hit flotsam including partially submerged logs, fishing net, etc
3/ Water intake blocked leading to overheating (plastic bag, seaweed, etc)
4/ Contaminated fuel and/or damaged primer bulb
5/ Battery drain/starter motor fails
6/ Manual start engine - starter rope breaks (don't ask me how I know)

Long story short - if you boat on your own, in remote locations, and conditions dictate that rescue and or tow is a bit of a lottery, then go ahead a fit an auxilliary.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by willk

No, he'll be "there" in about three minutes if he's at home when the pager goes. Typical launch time for them is "feet wet" nine minutes after the pager goes, first moving comms at ten minutes. I've been at a station 3 or 4 times by chance and seen it happen - it's very impressive...

Did you eat his dinner for him - its the least you can do so it doesn't go to waste.

I've see the South Queensferry guys launch in the summer, and the first people to get there (through the tourist traffic) arrive on push bikes - which are literally thrown into the hands of the shore crew whilst they kit up.

There is clearly a wee bit of a race going on! Although when its another shout to people stuck on Crammond Island it must be disheartening!

[HUMBER P4VWL]

Originally Posted by BogMonster

Disagree, as probably the remotest boater here and with NO lifeboat cover in this part of the world, I wouldn't be without mine much outside the harbour but especially offshore. The prevailing wind in this part of the world is usually offshore from our side of the islands, which means if you're lucky you'll hit Africa in about 4000 miles, if you miss that then you might hit Australia but the next confirmed landfall is the west coast of Chile which is about 13000 miles. Give me 20 miles at 4 knots any day

Whoa there neddy! Agreed if you boat in the badlands with no rescue service or other people for x miles, agreed, get an aux!!

[9D280]

Errr 20 miles at 4 knots is what the average yottie will manage. At least with an Aux you can guatrantee to point straight at where you want to go!

Originally Posted by HUMBER P4VWL

We had an aux with our Merc 90 on an SR 5.4. What a terwat it was. Took it off in the end. If the engine is reliable and you don't go to remote areas, just use your main.

I have towed sub 1YO stuff back into largs before using my 1970s Yam....

Never assume anything

Originally Posted by Clamchowder

This one always shits me up.

I am by nature the cautious type and am naturally inclined towards a wing, but there's just no room on my transom (Humber Attaque aka Ocean Pro 5.3 2m beam).

Anyone else got an exciting way around this?

I have the predecessor to yours. I guess you have an A- frame that goes vertically up form the inside tangent of the toobs?

There are (afaik) only about three ways round this:

1) a wee tohatsu 3.5 (the ones everyone goes on about)
2) a 1970s Johnsorude twin pot 4 - but you'll need a poly bag over it to keep the lower spark plug dry - don't ask me how I know)and depending on your frame you may need to butcher a clamp to get it over the tow bridle U-bolts / Frame fixing bolts.
3) Replace the A- frame with a "toob curve following" design that will allow space to actually mount a decent Aux right at the extremity.

I am mucking about with Cad at the moment doing sketches for a replacement frame....

[BigDipper]

Would never go out without my aux motor. Any motor no matter how new or well maintained does not like rope or other garbage wrapped around it. Its not just out at sea. We have had a fouled prop in Poole Harbour and its amazing how quick you can drift in front of oncomming vessels or onto sand banks. We also use ours for comming up to the beach or going up river where I would rather not risk my main engine catching. The best peace of mind you can have with you.

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by Poly

However having been stuck disabled in the middle of a channel as a big ship bears down on you I recommend having options other than a paddle!

That almost sounds like a confession that you were a bit stressed...

Originally Posted by HUMBER P4VWL

It's tiring reading his dissertations...

Oh god... don't feed the beast!

[clydeoutboards]

Hi

this is common debate and an important one and by far the bets reply IMO is Spartacus again when he says:

I can think of numerous situations (including ones I've witnessed or had near misses with) which can disable your main engine, regardless of condition or reliability, including:

1/ Lobster pot marker buoys (wraps around prop and strips rubber bush)
2/ Hit flotsam including partially submerged logs, fishing net, etc
3/ Water intake blocked leading to overheating (plastic bag, seaweed, etc)
4/ Contaminated fuel and/or damaged primer bulb
5/ Battery drain/starter motor fails
6/ Manual start engine - starter rope breaks (don't ask me how I know)

Long story short - if you boat on your own, in remote locations, and conditions dictate that rescue and or tow is a bit of a lottery, then go ahead a fit an auxilliary.

I would go 1 stage further and ask each owner the simple question of would you want to forced to use other boaters to rescue you regardless of you where and when you are out on your boat?

[HUMBER P4VWL]

Originally Posted by clydeoutboards

Hi

this is common debate and an important one and by far the bets reply IMO is Spartacus again when he says:

I would go 1 stage further and ask each owner the simple question of would you want to forced to use other boaters to rescue you regardless of you where and when you are out on your boat?

I also liked the reply that alluded to modern engines generally going in to limp mode rather than stopping entirely.

I can't argue with comments re being alone and being without power. But there's balance for some users.

We boat in coastal, well populated and RnlI covered (2 stations) waters. When we go more than about 12mile from them it is usually in company. We have VHF, anchor etc.

In 20 yrs (touch wood) the worst has been limp mode due to water in fuel and intermittent electrical problem due to chafed wire.

We had an aux for 4 yrs but on a mooring it can't be left as it gets nicked, it was a pain putting it on and then rattling round in the rough so on balance we don't put it on.

It's horses for courses as ever. But I think there is a case for one engine.

[willk]

Originally Posted by clydeoutboards

Hi

this is common debate and an important one and by far the bets reply IMO is Spartacus again when he says:

I would go 1 stage further and ask each owner the simple question of would you want to forced to use other boaters to rescue you regardless of you where and when you are out on your boat?

As H-P says, some people feel that there are enough other boats around to help out. Like this lad (unless he's standing in front of an aux bracket )