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Old 06 August 2004, 10:45   #21
DGR
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Erm...

Rupert Bear,

I didn't say that they were unwelcome. I just thought that the marketing 'spin' was funny!! And illustrating the point about the size of them.

Mind you, if you ever find yourself on the prom in Blackpool, looking out to sea is most definately the best view...(even with the turbines when they arrive...)

Dylan...
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Old 06 August 2004, 12:10   #22
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to the point

We are drifting off the point here, we need next generation fuels for outboards, and inboards, diesel/petrol

we need to be running these prototypes now to see what works, what needs changing etc etc
Electrical generation with alternative sources wont help us, unless the fuel is saved for cars/boats petrol/diesel motors
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Old 06 August 2004, 13:01   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gavin
We are drifting off the point here, we need next generation fuels for outboards, and inboards, diesel/petrol

we need to be running these prototypes now to see what works, what needs changing etc etc
Electrical generation with alternative sources wont help us, unless the fuel is saved for cars/boats petrol/diesel motors

Yes already available - hydrogen - why ditch 100yrs of ic engine design mucking around with fuel cells etc?
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Old 06 August 2004, 16:49   #24
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I would be very wary about Hydrogen as a gas. When mixed with oxygen at concentrations above 4% it is highly explosive.
I would need a LOT of convincing before going out with what is basically a mobile bomb
It is far more dangerous than petrol!
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Old 06 August 2004, 17:27   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert Bear
I would be very wary about Hydrogen as a gas. When mixed with oxygen at concentrations above 4% it is highly explosive.
I would need a LOT of convincing before going out with what is basically a mobile bomb
It is far more dangerous than petrol!

Is it really? Have you seen the results of a fuel/air bomb? They use petrol!

How is it any worse than LPG as used in numerous vehicles?

Or the butane they now use as a propellant in aerosols?
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Old 06 August 2004, 17:40   #26
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Experiments were carried out in the 70's using Hydrogen as a breathing gas by Comex. They found that if Hydrogen was mixed with oygen at a percentage above 4% the risk of a spontaneous explosion even without an ignition source was extremely high. The outcome of these experiments was the adoption of helium instead despite the scarcity and cost of it.
Petrol is only flammable in vapour form and is pretty safe even at 21% oxygen concentration unless ignited. It does have a low point of igntion but won't spontaneously explode! The experiments found that there was even a significant risk of a diver breathing hydox spontaneously exploding and if a gas can be ignited inside a wet human then I am not keen in carting it around in a fuel tank beside a battery and a warm outboard

AFAIK fuel/air bombs are "fueled" by a variety of methods-kerosene, ethylene oxide or explosive slurry, not petrol.
Anybody know for sure?
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Old 06 August 2004, 17:41   #27
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I'm with codfish on this fer sure. And so are Ford.
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Old 06 August 2004, 18:19   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert Bear

AFAIK fuel/air bombs are "fueled" by a variety of methods-kerosene, ethylene oxide or explosive slurry, not petrol.
Anybody know for sure?
Almost any hydrocarbon fuel can be used - even flower could be used if needed - or sawdust etc. it is way too complex a subject to discuss here!

Obviously some things are more effective than others - Kerosene is preffered because it is safer to handle than petrol and more widely used as a military fuel.

FAE bombs aren't really that reliable becuase they need ideal conditions - a high wind speed can seriously disrupt their performance.
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Old 06 August 2004, 18:26   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert Bear
Experiments were carried out in the 70's using Hydrogen as a breathing gas by Comex. They found that if Hydrogen was mixed with oygen at a percentage above 4% the risk of a spontaneous explosion even without an ignition source was extremely high. The outcome of these experiments was the adoption of helium instead despite the scarcity and cost of it.
Petrol is only flammable in vapour form and is pretty safe even at 21% oxygen concentration unless ignited. It does have a low point of igntion but won't spontaneously explode! The experiments found that there was even a significant risk of a diver breathing hydox spontaneously exploding and if a gas can be ignited inside a wet human then I am not keen in carting it around in a fuel tank beside a battery and a warm outboard
Butane has a Lower Flammable (Explosive) Limit (LFL/LEL) of 1.8% Propane 2.1% Hydrogen as you quite rightly stated - 4%

Guess what petrol is - 1.2%!!!!

http://www.delphian.com/chc.htm

Many people use propane and butane daily
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Old 06 August 2004, 19:53   #30
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I think my point was taken the wrong way.
Hydrogen when mixed with oxygen concentrations above 4% is highly explosive not 4% hydrogen mixed with oxygen. (Although this is also fairly flammable)
Most flammable gases and most particles in small enough sizes when mixed with atmospheric oxygen are extremely explosive, flour has been known to be a particular hazard in mills for yonks.
How did this argument start anyway? Hydrogen isn't even a particularly good fuel, it may be "clean" but its calorific value is considerably less than petrol and it isn't a very practical fuel for carting about in boats. If I had to take a guess on what would be used in the future it would still be internal combustion but with fuels derived from agricultural methods and refined. ie rapeseed and sunflower and suchlike.
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