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Old 13 June 2012, 03:16   #51
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Country: UK - England
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Originally Posted by marek916 View Post

Maybe in a couple of years when a few more crashed ones become available (and when my wallet is up to it) I will upgrade them to N57S's BMW N57 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which are almost 400hp from the factory!
I'm assuming that's what we have badged as the Yanmar BY260? Yanmaar fit a different turbo and brain but it's the same common rail 3 litre block. If we go back up to Coniston this year it is tempting to run a few more hp to see how fast she will go!
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Originally Posted by Zippy
When a boat looks that good who needs tubes!!!
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Old 13 June 2012, 03:40   #52
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Boat name: Fugly & Rokraider 1
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Paul Lemmer said they ran a pair of later model BMWs in one of the Round Britain races. They used the aluminium block version. Apparently they were so economical that they could carry less fuel, saving quite a bit of weight. He also mentioned that the Alumium blocks cracked along the centre above the crank from the crashing up and down and advised fitting a girdle to prevent this happening in the future. They do have a sort of girdle / oil baffle as standard, but obviously not beefy enough. That is one of the reasons I have gone for the earlier steel block. The other reason is the simpler electrics, 2003 onwards they became more complicated and started running lots of extra stuff, such as pneumatic engine mount rubbers that would soften at idle and stiiffen under load, for a smoother drive.
If you wanted to run the bigger power figures, I don't see why you couldn't use the twin turbo variable vane setup from the later engine on a steel block. Some of the tuners are apparently getting 350 + BHP all day long.

I just checked the ECU, I am running the 5 plug.
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Old 13 June 2012, 05:05   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokraider View Post
Paul Lemmer said they ran a pair of later model BMWs in one of the Round Britain races. They used the aluminium block version. Apparently they were so economical that they could carry less fuel, saving quite a bit of weight. He also mentioned that the Alumium blocks cracked along the centre above the crank from the crashing up and down and advised fitting a girdle to prevent this happening in the future. They do have a sort of girdle / oil baffle as standard, but obviously not beefy enough. That is one of the reasons I have gone for the earlier steel block. The other reason is the simpler electrics, 2003 onwards they became more complicated and started running lots of extra stuff, such as pneumatic engine mount rubbers that would soften at idle and stiiffen under load, for a smoother drive.
If you wanted to run the bigger power figures, I don't see why you couldn't use the twin turbo variable vane setup from the later engine on a steel block. Some of the tuners are apparently getting 350 + BHP all day long.

I just checked the ECU, I am running the 5 plug.
Well he got the first bit right!

They are lighter and very economical. They burn 110 LPH for the pair at WOT which is 70mph in our boat, this works out to 1.5 litres per mile or 3 MPG - not bad for a 3000kg 11 metre boat, of course credit has to go to the hull as well!

We made a cradle support which links the engine mounts together and this has been standard procedure for most race engines for a very long time - even the older 315 Yanmars break without a cradle - therefore having the steel block just adds weight and just as many problems. I am of course talking about racing where the boat will be landing from a great height repeatedly - not the sort of thing you would do in a leisure boat unless you like pain!

As far as the electrics go, it's the same story with fuel really - the added complexity makes the engines more economical and cleaner, the argument for simplicity is a strong one and the order we have for a race boat is for the older 315's and not the more complicated 370's.

Our engine did not come with the pneumatic engine mounts and I can only imagine that's a car thing?

I believe our motors will go to 315hp or more with an ECU tune up - that would make it a bit more lively!

Paul Lemmer may have been around for a long time but he didn't rig that boat as far as I know, I believe nothing was checked after it had done some running and I am also led to believe the failures on RB08 were down to loose engine mounts.

Photos of our cradles fitted to the BY's below.
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Originally Posted by Zippy
When a boat looks that good who needs tubes!!!
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Old 13 June 2012, 07:54   #54
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All very interesting. it is encouraging to read the fuel figures. Paul Lemmer didn't claim to have built it etc, I think he was a passenger / co driver?
The pneumatic mounts are used in the cars.
When we strengthen the block on the off roaders, we machine a sandwich plate that fits between the sump and the block, usually in 10mm steel and using the sump bots and custom main bearing cap bolts it re enforces the block and reduces flex. This was common practice on the Rover V8 that got a bit flimsy when stroked and running around 300 BHP.
What is the book figure for your engine setup?
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Old 13 June 2012, 10:54   #55
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I thought the BY260 was based on the steel block (M57) rather than the Ali block (N57)?

I'm not sure what the book figure for the engine is, I suspect it's around the 200hp mark but could be as low as 184 depending on ECU mapping.

Where the 315 race engines marinised BMW's or Yanmar specials?

For the throttle, I'm buying an off the shelf electronic control from either Morse, Glendinning or ZF then making an adapter PCB with microcontroller (although I might use a PLC) to generate the throttle demand signals for the BMW ECU. I think the standard ECU uses 2 identical potentiometers mechanically linked but biased by 2 different voltages so that any given throttle position gives 2 different voltage signals (except 0). The ECU then does a mathmatical comparison to ensure the 2 voltages match up with the same physical position on each potentiometer.
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Old 13 June 2012, 10:58   #56
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Also, how much bigger is the turbo on the Range Rover? Is this a straight swap item?
Did you change the injectors yourself? Are they the slide hammer removal type? If so, how much did they cost? (if you don't mind me asking!)
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Old 13 June 2012, 12:29   #57
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I have a fixed vane turbo built by Garret with a conventional adjustable boost capsule for the waste gate. The turbo is larger than the Range Rover one. The nozzles are special order from Bosch's competition section and requires the Injectors to be rebuilt and set up. I have had the injectors rebuilt and setup with the new nozzles and all the seals internally replaced etc. I don't have a current price, but you are looking around 250 + VAT per injector exchange. The injector nozzles were a special order from Bosch
The injectors came out easily. Unlike the Mercedes system where they have one bolt clamping them in which causes an uneven loading on the compression seal, which causes them to blow and gunge everything up, effectively gluing them in place. The BMW uses 2 bolts per injector which keeps everything square and well sealed. Haven't needed to use a slide hammer so far. I made up a tool that screws onto the fuel line thread and gives me something to lever on, without damaging anything.

I have not thought about the issues of running a pair of engines, but one area that could interesting will be synchronising the engines so they run at matching power levels? At least you have the simplicity of straight forward pumps and control the fuel delivery electronically.
Will you have the ability in your throttle system to balance both engine throttles? Presumably both pumps will need to be setup so they both give the same amount of fuel into their respective rails as a base to work from. If you go for the bigger injectors, they can all be set up identically. Once that is done presumably the rest can be done electronically in the mapping?

I heard of a diesel conversion on a tank with twin engines and separate gearboxes driving each track. The problems came when the power was applied, one engine made slightly more power than the other, causing it to power steer under load.
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Old 13 June 2012, 13:04   #58
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Do you know what the Garret part number is or was it an aftermarket special? Also, does it fit the standard manifold?

I guess the nozzles are the part of the injector that allows more flow per millisecond?
I don't know a lot about the injectors other than they moved over to piezo electric ones at some points (I'm guessing these are the earlier technology?)
I know there is an electronic control loop in the ECU that monitors the rail pressure and actuates a valve to keep the pressure constant. I'm not sure if this loop can be adjusted for a higher rail pressure and if this would effect the correct function of the injectors?

I don't think there are major issues with running 2 engines on electronic throttles, after all, boats with manual throttles and 2 engines are in the same boat (pardon the pun). I presume the engine with the lower throttle demand will spool up to the same RPM (- a small amount) as the more loaded engine since the props are running through the water at the same speed. Also, the boat has a person in the steering loop so any torque steer would be offset by the person adding a steering offset...

On a different note, does anyone know the spline type on the input shaft to the Bravo leg as the engineering shop whom I'm getting to EDM the internal spline are having to try and copy a scrap one kindly lent to me by Marine Power Engineering at Hamble (thanks guys!)?
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Old 13 June 2012, 13:05   #59
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Also, do you have a part number for the Bosch injector nozzles?
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Old 13 June 2012, 13:19   #60
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Please don't take this the wrong way, but I am in this as a business (4x4 vehicles) and have spent long hours and cash sorting out this stuff.
I am happy to overhaul your injectors and fit the bigger nozzles, but am not interested in simply handing over the hard earned info for free.
However, I might be interested in doing some kind of exchange when it comes to black boxes and PCB's etc?
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