Four strokes

[BogMonster]

The question "opti or etec or ?" seems to crop up all the time for 2 stroke engines but I can't really remember seeing anything on here since I joined about the pros and cons of different four strokes? I did a search but of course "four stroke" brings up half the threads on the forum so that wasn't what I needed

If all goes to plan and I get my Mac 570 the power limit on that is 120hp so it'll be a 115 for it I guess. Mac themselves (Marine Revolution) offer the Yamaha 4 stroke range, which from observation seems to often be fitted to boats that are cost-no-object e.g. tenders to expensive luxury boats (we've got one anchored in the harbour here at the moment with a plush looking Orca rib and a Yamaha 115 on it). The Suzuki DF115 is the other main option.

Is there much to choose between any of them in terms of performance or reliability? I haven't got prices yet but that will also be a factor. Any other comments would be interesting from people that use either of the above engines.

Ta

[Aidan]

Originally Posted by BogMonster

The question "opti or etec or ?" seems to crop up all the time for 2 stroke engines but I can't really remember seeing anything on here since I joined about the pros and cons of different four strokes? I did a search but of course "four stroke" brings up half the threads on the forum so that wasn't what I needed

If all goes to plan and I get my Mac 570 the power limit on that is 120hp so it'll be a 115 for it I guess. Mac themselves (Marine Revolution) offer the Yamaha 4 stroke range, which from observation seems to often be fitted to boats that are cost-no-object e.g. tenders to expensive luxury boats (we've got one anchored in the harbour here at the moment with a plush looking Orca rib and a Yamaha 115 on it). The Suzuki DF115 is the other main option.

Is there much to choose between any of them in terms of performance or reliability? I haven't got prices yet but that will also be a factor. Any other comments would be interesting from people that use either of the above engines.

Ta

Hi Stephan, Rib Int did a good piece on 2 vs 4 in last issue. It covered more than just the usual, sort of back to "green" basics.
I would add to that one more important thing as follows: I believe that no matter how right or wrong the argument is, the greater unwashed will move to 4 stroke and those who have to will stick to 2 stroke for reasons of less moving parts, easier to service and a Spark plug clean will normally do the job.
The new ETAC seem wonderful if they work and many say they do. However, the general move is to 4 stroke and thus I would question the resale value of any big 2 stroker. You can see it clearly on the pricing of Ballistic in www.Ribsforsale and www.boatsandoutboards.
If the resale price does not matter then do what you like. Meanwhile for deeper v hulls it takes a bit more oomph for a 4 stroke to pull the skier up. The two stroke seems to have more of this oomph at low revs...
I may be wrong about this argument but I dont think I am wrong about the values.
Having read reviews, the Suzuki 140 DF seems to be a fantastic engine, Codprawn sent me a great address for checking out this and Johnson 140

Aidan

[peter 24/7]

I would look more at who is the best to service your engine. have got susuki 200hp and have had no issues with engine, only the service agents and the back up for spares. (3 weeks for power trim seals??)
Etec sounds good if they do what it says on the can,just so happens the local Evenrude agent is pretty hot around here.
A new angle of the question, but a very important one.

[jyasaki]

Not going to get into the 2 stroke vs. 4 debate.

As for the Yamaha vs. Suzuki question, I think they've both proven to be pretty good. I have a F115 on my boat; 130 hrs, not a hiccup yet.

Price point, I think (probably depends on local availability more than anything else) that the Suzuki will be a tad cheaper; but as Peter mentioned, don't forget to factor in proximity of service (not that there's much to do in either case; I've done my own 10 and 100 hr service, pretty simple stuff, though I'm not sure the manufacturer will use that as a selling point.)

I had a Honda 4 stroke on my SIB, and never did find a good shop to take it to.

If weight is an issue, a serious look at 2 strokes would be in store; for me, the (perceived) improved emissions had a lot to do with the choice (Here, in California, they're starting to ban 2-strokes on some lakes.)

jky

[BogMonster]

OK, well servicing is irrelevant here because there are no agents for any of them! So out of the box reliability is important because if it doesn't go wrong I won't need an agent do NOT want something that requires "expert tinkering" all the time or is likely to arrive with a fault.

Four stroke it has to be because I saw a Rigid Raider with a pair of DF140s on the weekend and they sounded so fantastic, so quiet you could hardly hear it on idle and when I later heard it going down the harbour at full chat, that was quite nice too I absolutely love something like that which runs like a sewing machine instead of a rattletrap 2 stroke belching smoke everywhere when idling. Maybe new generation ones don't but I don't have any experience of those and I work with mechanical stuff and just don't really like 2 stroke engines of any sort.

Since Mac offer the F115 on their boats I'm assuming that the weight (190 odd kg for the 115) is ok with the boat I will probably be hanging it off and the Suzi is about the same (a couple of kilos heavier but that is all).

I did see a very tempting price on a Vipermax in another part of this forum though, which has made life even more complicated

[toby4594]

Stephen I have a suzi DF115 and must be said I am very happy with it .I have experience with both 2and 4 strokes and the suzi suits my purposes very well There is definately something about a 2 stroke when it comes on song ,but the suzi is smooth and eerily silent, at tick over you cannot tell its running,bags of low down torque,and a very compact unit .Servicing is an issue , Ive had the hood off and soon put it back on again ,so I would imagine your choice will be made up for you by the location of your nearest dealer.If you need any more info I would be only to pleased to help.

[Biggles]

My Suzuki DF 140 sounds suprsingly meaty for a four stroke. Only when its above 5000 revs though.

[toby4594]

Sorry Stephen you posted while I was pondering Have had no problems with the Suzi ,100 hrs on .

[toby4594]

Biggles what hours has your DF140 done ,Where do you get it serviced.

[Biggles]

Toby,

It has 150 hours. As I am not the first owner I haven't needed to service it yet. As it is the engines been over serviced, Three services so far and I have all the engine printouts which look good, other than a battery low indication on each and every printout and service, even when it was PDI'd. No problems on the starting side.The previous owner used Fairweather Marine in Fareham though.
Contact Nautibuoy for his dealings with Fairweather.
Having said that its probably where I will be taking it in a few months time.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by BogMonster

OK, well servicing is irrelevant here because there are no agents for any of them! So out of the box reliability is important because if it doesn't go wrong I won't need an agent do NOT want something that requires "expert tinkering" all the time or is likely to arrive with a fault.

I did see a very tempting price on a Vipermax in another part of this forum though, which has made life even more complicated

Many new outboards need laptops etc plugged into them for servicing and tinkering - could be a problem for you?

But the Vipermax has tubes......

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Many new outboards need laptops etc plugged into them for servicing and tinkering - could be a problem for you?

Need? Perhaps for things like the EFI and such; routine maintenance (100 hr) on the F115 involves: Oil change, fuel filter inspection, lower unit oil change, remove and lubricate prop and bearing, and "inspection of fuel system". There is nothing in the routine maintenance that requires electronic monitoring or access to motor.

The software for diagnosing problems on the Yamaha motors, should you want to do it yourself, is available from dealers, and runs, I believe, a couple of hundred bucks US for the application and cabling.


jky

[Millermob]

Hi Stephen

I was thinking that if you talked to one of the outboard manufacturers maybe you could get the software for free and become the local dealer for Stanley, just a thought.

Freddie

[BogMonster]

Originally Posted by Millermob

Hi Stephen

I was thinking that if you talked to one of the outboard manufacturers maybe you could get the software for free and become the local dealer for Stanley, just a thought.

Freddie

It's an idea worth asking, thanks for the thought if the diagnostic stuff can be got for Yamaha engines for a couple of hundred, then I may stick with those.

Its interesting to note all the little cruise ship Zodiacs that come round these parts all seem to use Yam engines which probably says something for reliability of those because those little boats get worked hard and breakdowns with a boatload of tourists are probably bad for business! I was looking at about ten of them the other day from my boat, all moored to the tourist jetty, all with 60hp Yamaha four strokes on.

Cod, I don't know for sure but I doubt whether it is needed any more than it is on a new Discovery 3. It's certainly a common misconception with vehicles but I manage the Land Rover dealership and apart from one or two of the guys who will plug a computer into anything that stays parked for long enough to get the window open (because they like playing with the computer!) we never put the T4 on anything unless it's broken - not during routine servicing anyway.

Yes I know it has tubes but I do quite like it....

Are the Yamaha engines whisper quiet at low revs like the Suzukis? A lot of the enjoyment I get from mine is in playing around dolphins and penguins in the water so the quieter the better really.

[jyasaki]

Don't know if they're as quiet as the Suzuki, but they are damned quiet, especially at idle.

jky

[RIVA]

in 2005 from 200 hp up every six modern. ie new tecnoligy units sold world wide were 2 stroke or to be exact etec

it shocked me but these are the figures every manfacturer submited

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by RIVA

in 2005 from 200 hp up every six cylinder model, ie new technology units sold world wide were 2 stroke or to be exact etec it shocked me but these are the figures every manfacturer submited

Really are you saying Honda didn't sell any big engines in 2005 ?

Pete

[RIVA]

to make it clear in 2005 from 200 hp upwards 6 out of every 10 engines sold world wide were etec, and this is from infomation supplied by all the engine manfactures , and honda is definatly not the biggest i think they rank 6 th in the volume at the moment .

it shocked me but then if you relise that i know of one & there are more dealers in florida that sells more hp per year than the uk and ireland put together its not hard to see why

intresting fact this year 2006 average hp germany 40hp uk is 68.2hp

we must like hp

pete thats not my quote you pasted

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by RIVA

Pete that's not my quote you posted

Correct, I tried to edit your post because I didn't understand it

Hmm, if Bombadier bought OMC for a good price they may have struck gold with the Etec then. Good news for owners too, if lots are sold there will be plenty of knowledge and spares in the years to come.

Pete

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by RIVA

in 2005 from 200 hp up every six modern. ie new tecnoligy units sold world wide were 2 stroke or to be exact etec

Well, if you qualify 4-stroke technology as non-modern, and the E-Tec as teh only "new technology" (as so many E-Tec pundits are wont to do) then yeah, you're probably right.

to make it clear in 2005 from 200 hp upwards 6 out of every 10 engines sold world wide were etec

This is a much different statement than your first.

Not trying to offend or anything, but I have a hard time believing that E-Tec account for 60% of the entire >200hp market. Would you care to share whatever data you have on that?

jky