Flushing; Muffs or Attchment?!

[J@mes]

Hi there,

I recently purchased a Tohatsu 50hp TLDi and want to know about flushing it with fresh water.

I was simply going to buy the flushing attachment and use that, but I am not sure whether you are meant to have the engine running or not whilst using the flushing attachment. I hope you are as that way the fresh water will run around the hole system (the stat etc) properly. I have read my manual and its a bit ambiguous, it says to fit the flushing attachment and flush out with water, no mention of running the engine! BUT also on the same page it says "wash the engine before long term storage, run the engine at slow speed to flush out fresh water from the cooling system..."

So does Tohatsu maybe mean, when doing a quick flush just turn the tap on, but if storing the engine away for a period also run the engine with the flushing attachment/tap on?!


As for ear muffs, obvously I know you must have the engine running for them to work, but if I do buy ear muffs instead of the flushing attachment, should I be buying single or double ear muffs? From what I have seen, usually single is for outboards up to 50hp and double is for outboards over 50hp. Is this correct? Would I do any harm using a double one? I would rather the engine got more water to help keep it cool whilst out of the water!

Thanks for your help!

James

[yoyo]

You run the engine whilst flushing with fresh water.

You can use either method ie, screw in the fitting to the gear case where it says 'flush' ( a little tricky) or much easier to just use flush muffs as I do. I have always used the double muffs on engines from 10hp upwards.

[J@mes]

Yea I did read somewhere its a little tricky to fit the attachment. Think I will just go for the double muffs then! Will any old ones on ebay do such as... YELLOW Flush Muff Outboard Engine Motor Flushing Muffs | eBay

Also I take it you turn the tap on full blast?!

Thanks.

[kerny]

Originally Posted by J@mes

Yea I did read somewhere its a little tricky to fit the attachment. Think I will just go for the double muffs then! Will any old ones on ebay do such as... YELLOW Flush Muff Outboard Engine Motor Flushing Muffs | eBay

Also I take it you turn the tap on full blast?!

Thanks.

Those are the ones

[yoyo]

Originally Posted by J@mes

Yea I did read somewhere its a little tricky to fit the attachment. Think I will just go for the double muffs then! Will any old ones on ebay do such as... YELLOW Flush Muff Outboard Engine Motor Flushing Muffs | eBay

Also I take it you turn the tap on full blast?!

Thanks.

These muffs will be fine but personally I would look for some that have a hozelok type fitting on the end, you can then fit a hozelok nozzel to your hose and wash down the boat once the engine is flushed

[Boats&Outboards]

It's not difficult to fit a hose lock to those either though. Double fill are better than the singles that normally come fitted with attachment. Cut short hose, then plug n play!

Peter @ Boatsandoutboards4sale ~ askboatsandoutboards4sale@sky.com ~ 07930 421007

[Max...]

I bought a set of those same muffs a couple of years back, they work a treat.

[kerny]

Originally Posted by Max...

I bought a set of those same muffs a couple of years back, they work a treat.

Same as

[J@mes]

think I will go for these bad boys... Outboard Engine Flush Muffs *DOUBLE* - 50hp and Up | eBay they have the hose pipe connector already and they have rectangular covers/caps which should sit slightly better I would imagine.

Changing subject, can anyone tell me if this Cepsa 2 stroke oil CEPSA -Outboard Engines which I have a couple of bottles left over from my previous engine will be ok for my new Tohatsu 50hp TLDI (2 stroke injection) engine?

EDIT: think I have found the answer; Tohatsu Outboards: Authorized North American Distributor for Tohatsu Outboard Motor, Parts, & Accessories. it says;
TLDI outboards should only be run using TCW3 oil specifically formulated for use in Direct Injection motors. Standard TCW3 oil is not recommended for use in TLDI outboards.

• Tohatsu Complete Advantage 100% Synthetic Oil
• Tohatsu Premium TCW3 Semi-Synthetic Oil
• Nissan Marine Complete Advantage 100% Synthetic Oil
• Nissan Marine Premium TCW3 Semi-Synthetic Oil
• Pennzoil 100% Marine Synthetic
• Pennzoil Semi-Synthetic Outboard Oil
• Mercury Optimax/DFI Oil
• Yamaha Yamalube 2-M Semi-Synthetic Injector Oil
• Bombardier XD-50 Semi-Synthetic Oil
• Bombardier XD-100 Full-Synthetic Oil

The above oil brands are currently the only brands that have been tested and approved by our factory for use in TLDI systems.


Does anyone know a cheap place to buy any of the above online? or indeed another brand of oil that actually meets or supersedes the specification for Tohatsu TLDI engines? Reason I ask is because I have heard some brands of car engine oil (like Motul) can actually supersede manufacter's requirements, but don't have the manufacturer's stamp/recommendation on it because it costs thousands and thousands to pay for the test or something like that?!


Cheers.

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by yoyo

You run the engine whilst flushing with fresh water.

You can use either method ie, screw in the fitting to the gear case where it says 'flush' ( a little tricky) or much easier to just use flush muffs as I do.

Sure about that?

Most say that if you are not on muffs (i.e using either the screw in hose adaptor or a purpose installed inlet) you do *not* run the motor. Connect the hose, turn on, and wait.

One exception I know of is Susuki, which had a vieo on their site showing idling while on a hose adaptor (though they never said that in writing, as far as I know.)

Bottom line: on muffs, idle is OK. On anything else, do not run motor.

jky

[TomKat]

My mates Suzuki manual specifically says to not run the engine with the attachment, new 90hp.

[wellhouse]

Originally Posted by TomKat

My mates Suzuki manual specifically says to not run the engine with the attachment, new 90hp.

that's my understanding on Yamaha's as well (manual) - muffs on run engine or connect to flush point by engine cover and don't run engine (F115).

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by J@mes

think I will go for these bad boys... Outboard Engine Flush Muffs *DOUBLE* - 50hp and Up | eBay they have the hose pipe connector already and they have rectangular covers/caps which should sit slightly better I would imagine.

Changing subject, can anyone tell me if this Cepsa 2 stroke oil CEPSA -Outboard Engines which I have a couple of bottles left over from my previous engine will be ok for my new Tohatsu 50hp TLDI (2 stroke injection) engine?

EDIT: think I have found the answer; Tohatsu Outboards: Authorized North American Distributor for Tohatsu Outboard Motor, Parts, & Accessories. it says;
TLDI outboards should only be run using TCW3 oil specifically formulated for use in Direct Injection motors. Standard TCW3 oil is not recommended for use in TLDI outboards.

• Tohatsu Complete Advantage 100% Synthetic Oil
• Tohatsu Premium TCW3 Semi-Synthetic Oil
• Nissan Marine Complete Advantage 100% Synthetic Oil
• Nissan Marine Premium TCW3 Semi-Synthetic Oil
• Pennzoil 100% Marine Synthetic
• Pennzoil Semi-Synthetic Outboard Oil
• Mercury Optimax/DFI Oil
• Yamaha Yamalube 2-M Semi-Synthetic Injector Oil
• Bombardier XD-50 Semi-Synthetic Oil
• Bombardier XD-100 Full-Synthetic Oil

The above oil brands are currently the only brands that have been tested and approved by our factory for use in TLDI systems.


Does anyone know a cheap place to buy any of the above online? or indeed another brand of oil that actually meets or supersedes the specification for Tohatsu TLDI engines? Reason I ask is because I have heard some brands of car engine oil (like Motul) can actually supersede manufacter's requirements, but don't have the manufacturer's stamp/recommendation on it because it costs thousands and thousands to pay for the test or something like that?!


Cheers.

AFAIK (& I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong)TCW3 is TCW3, there aren't different grades. TCW3 is the grade. E.g. BRP recommend their own oil for Etecs, XD50 & XD100, but they also state that any good quality oil will be OK as long as it meets the TCW3 standard. I've not heard of using 4 stroke engine oil in place of 2 stroke oil & it's not something I'd do to my babys just to save a few pennies. I run XD100 in my engines & for the amount they use, it's not worth trying to cut corners. A powerhead ain't cheap

[wellhouse]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

AFAIK (& I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong)TCW3 is TCW3, there aren't different grades. TCW3 is the grade. E.g. BRP recommend their own oil for Etecs, XD50 & XD100, but they also state that any good quality oil will be OK as long as it meets the TCW3 standard. I've not heard of using 4 stroke engine oil in place of 2 stroke oil & it's not something I'd do to my babys just to save a few pennies. I run XD100 in my engines & for the amount they use, it's not worth trying to cut corners. A powerhead ain't cheap

TC-W3 comment correct (sort of)


TC-W3 Two-Stroke Oil Certification Program
Due to the nature of two-stroke marine engines, two-stroke oil lubricates the engine parts as it passes through the engine and is then burned along with the fuel. Two-stroke oil is either physically mixed with the fuel or, in the case of direct fuel injection, is combined with the fuel in the combustion chamber. This is in contrast to four-stroke engines which have oil sumps circulate the oil by pumping it throughout the engines.
The long term objectives of the two-stroke engine industry have been to reduce emissions which contain burned and unburned oil that have passed through the engine, and to develop a quality of oil that reduces the mixture ratio to fuel while extending the life of the engine. That means significantly reduced emissions to satisfy EPA requirements, less warranty problems, and increased customer satisfaction due to engines lasting longer with less maintenance and overhauls.
TC-W3® lubricant, an NMMA-owned trademark, has evolved over the years through much testing and research, and has proven to be the level of quality needed to satisfy the above objectives. And, going a step further, now that two-stroke engines have moved towards higher cylinder temperatures and compressions, this type of lubricant also helps to meet the EPA emissions reductions.
TC-W3® has demonstrated the necessary lubrication performance quality needed for these more demanding cylinder/engine conditions.
The TC-W3® standard is a performance-based qualification program. The requirements include various bench tests for fluidity, miscibility, rust, compatibility, etc., as well as engine tests to evaluate the prevention of ring sticking and carbon buildup on pistons and other engine parts. The engine tests include one Johnson 40 hp, one Johnson 70 hp, and two consecutive Mercury 15 hp tests, all of which are run under severe conditions for 100 hours each. Two additional engine tests are also conducted to ensure a high level of lubricity performance. The testing process is comprehensive and expensive, but worth the outcome for consumers and manufacturers.
Once lubricants have demonstrated the necessary lubrication performance qualities needed for TC-W3® certification testing by NMMA-approved laboratories, NMMA licenses those two-stroke lubricants to be marketed to the public. TC-W3® oils are licensed around the world and are recommended for use by two-stroke engine manufacturers.

[J@mes]

Originally Posted by jyasaki

Sure about that?

Most say that if you are not on muffs (i.e using either the screw in hose adaptor or a purpose installed inlet) you do *not* run the motor. Connect the hose, turn on, and wait.

One exception I know of is Susuki, which had a vieo on their site showing idling while on a hose adaptor (though they never said that in writing, as far as I know.)

Bottom line: on muffs, idle is OK. On anything else, do not run motor.

jky

Like I said my Tohatsu manual is a bit ambiguous and here it says NOT to run engine with the flush attachment... Frequently Asked Question: Freshwater Flush - Nissan and Tohatsu outboards

Either way I will be buying muffs knowing I can run the engine!

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

AFAIK (& I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong)TCW3 is TCW3, there aren't different grades. TCW3 is the grade. E.g. BRP recommend their own oil for Etecs, XD50 & XD100, but they also state that any good quality oil will be OK as long as it meets the TCW3 standard. I've not heard of using 4 stroke engine oil in place of 2 stroke oil & it's not something I'd do to my babys just to save a few pennies. I run XD100 in my engines & for the amount they use, it's not worth trying to cut corners. A powerhead ain't cheap

Originally Posted by wellhouse

TC-W3 comment correct (sort of)


TC-W3 Two-Stroke Oil Certification Program
Due to the nature of two-stroke marine engines, two-stroke oil lubricates the engine parts as it passes through the engine and is then burned along with the fuel. Two-stroke oil is either physically mixed with the fuel or, in the case of direct fuel injection, is combined with the fuel in the combustion chamber. This is in contrast to four-stroke engines which have oil sumps circulate the oil by pumping it throughout the engines.
The long term objectives of the two-stroke engine industry have been to reduce emissions which contain burned and unburned oil that have passed through the engine, and to develop a quality of oil that reduces the mixture ratio to fuel while extending the life of the engine. That means significantly reduced emissions to satisfy EPA requirements, less warranty problems, and increased customer satisfaction due to engines lasting longer with less maintenance and overhauls.
TC-W3® lubricant, an NMMA-owned trademark, has evolved over the years through much testing and research, and has proven to be the level of quality needed to satisfy the above objectives. And, going a step further, now that two-stroke engines have moved towards higher cylinder temperatures and compressions, this type of lubricant also helps to meet the EPA emissions reductions.
TC-W3® has demonstrated the necessary lubrication performance quality needed for these more demanding cylinder/engine conditions.
The TC-W3® standard is a performance-based qualification program. The requirements include various bench tests for fluidity, miscibility, rust, compatibility, etc., as well as engine tests to evaluate the prevention of ring sticking and carbon buildup on pistons and other engine parts. The engine tests include one Johnson 40 hp, one Johnson 70 hp, and two consecutive Mercury 15 hp tests, all of which are run under severe conditions for 100 hours each. Two additional engine tests are also conducted to ensure a high level of lubricity performance. The testing process is comprehensive and expensive, but worth the outcome for consumers and manufacturers.
Once lubricants have demonstrated the necessary lubrication performance qualities needed for TC-W3® certification testing by NMMA-approved laboratories, NMMA licenses those two-stroke lubricants to be marketed to the public. TC-W3® oils are licensed around the world and are recommended for use by two-stroke engine manufacturers.

Dont get me wrong guys I am not trying to skimp on the costs of Oil, its just I want to bulk buy some here before taking my boat out to spain as it harder for me to get the correct stuff over there and im sure as eggs are eggs it will be more money there!

So it seams any TC-W3 oil will do, well I have 2 bottles of Cespa this one... CEPSA -Outboard Engines

but according to Tohatsu Tohatsu Outboards: Authorized North American Distributor for Tohatsu Outboard Motor, Parts, & Accessories. ... "Standard TCW3 oil is not recommended for use in TLDI outboards." "TLDI outboards should only be run using TCW3 oil specifically formulated for use in Direct Injection motors."

Is this just Tohatsu marketing so to speak? will any TC-W3 oil like the Cespa I have do?!

If I can get hold of one of the oils Tohatsu recommend to use above then I will but it will be good to know if I can use what I already have also!

Thanks.

[steco1958]

"Dont get me wrong guys I am not trying to skimp on the costs of Oil, its just I want to bulk buy some here before taking my boat out to spain as it harder for me to get the correct stuff over there"

What area of Spain you going to ?? I have been holidaying in Spain for donkey's years, I have never had a problem getting the correct oil for my then 2 strokes, what do you think the Spanish use in their engines ?

Steve

[J@mes]

Originally Posted by steco1958

"Dont get me wrong guys I am not trying to skimp on the costs of Oil, its just I want to bulk buy some here before taking my boat out to spain as it harder for me to get the correct stuff over there"

What area of Spain you going to ?? I have been holidaying in Spain for donkey's years, I have never had a problem getting the correct oil for my then 2 strokes, what do you think the Spanish use in their engines ?

Steve

Mallorca, and I dont have a car there, so without traveling on the bus for an hour each way to get to Palma to the local Tohatsu dealer is a pain and the prices out there are slightly higher than here, at least in the UK I can shop around and if I bought say 10 litres of oil here and put it in my boat when its shipped over I wouldn't have to worry about buying oil for a while out there!

What do you think I have been using in Mallorca for the past 14 years?! Cooking oil?! Of course I know the same products are available there as here, its just harder for there with no car etc. Currently I buy Cepsa (CEPSA -Outboard Engines) oil from the local petrol station which is reasonably priced (unlike the Repsol oil at the harbour's petrol station where I get fuel from) and is a quality product (TC-W3 approved) but unfortunately it isn't approved by Tohatsu for their TLDI engines!

[J@mes]

Just spoke to my Tohatsu dealer that I got my engine from, he said you can use any TC-W3 oil as long as it is semi-synthetic (or fully). Unfortunately I could not find out online if the Cespa one is semi-sythetic (I have a feeling it is mineral based) so I have bit the bullet and ordered 10 liters of Tohatsu semi-synthetic TC-W3 oil for £77.50 delivered.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by J@mes

Just spoke to my Tohatsu dealer that I got my engine from, he said you can use any TC-W3 oil as long as it is semi-synthetic (or fully). Unfortunately I could not find out online if the Cespa one is semi-sythetic (I have a feeling it is mineral based) so I have bit the bullet and ordered 10 liters of Tohatsu semi-synthetic TC-W3 oil for £77.50 delivered.

Data sheet for CEPSA oil, not much help in the synthetic/semi-synthetic area though. I'm guessing it's mineral based, simply because if it was synthetic they'd boast about it.

[J@mes]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Data sheet for CEPSA oil, not much help in the synthetic/semi-synthetic area though. I'm guessing it's mineral based, simply because if it was synthetic they'd boast about it.

Yea I saw that on their website the other day and came to the same conclusion as you!

Also I had an email from someone at Tohatsu-UK today recommending Rock Oil's Synthesis 2 injector oil. They also said what ever oil I chose, it must be fully (not semi!) synthetic and suitable for Direct injection engines.

Well that contradicts the Tohatsu US site (Tohatsu Outboards: Authorized North American Distributor for Tohatsu Outboard Motor, Parts, & Accessories. and Tohatsu Outboards: Authorized North American Distributor for Tohatsu Outboards, Parts, & Accessories.) which recommends Tohatsu Premium TCW3 Semi-Synthetic Oil (which I have bought 10litres of) amongst other semi-synthetic and fully synthetic oils for their 2 stroke TLDI engines.

So this is good enough for me if it says it on Tohatsu's website and also on the bottle it says recommended for TDLI engines and I have also just checked my engine manual, it simply says use original manufacturers oil, so that also covers that for any warranty claims too!

This oil lark is proving a pain in the bum!