DT200EFI Reverse Woes.

[Nasher]

Again the saga continues.
All of the below proves you have no idea what you are getting when you buy a used engine.

The bearing carrier certainly wouldn’t come out without a puller.
I made one with arms of 8mm round bar, which just straightened out when put under load, so I had to weld webs to them to strengthen them. It’s not pretty, but it did the job eventually after warming the casing up with a blow lamp and a few sharp taps of the hammer. I can assure you the welding looks better in real life than it does in the attached image.

The first thing I noticed was that the internals didn’t match my spare set, and that somebody had been in there before - The key that holds the bearing carrier in the correct orientation, and one of the oil seals were missing.
But the dogs on the back of the reverse gear are completely unmarked, and the dog clutch itself doesn’t look anywhere near bad enough to cause the problem. It’s good enough that I can take the damaged edges off it with a stone and reuse it.
However there was a lot of thick black sludge in the bottom of the case that could have been affecting the gear change mechanism. I’m surprised this is in there, as I drained decent looking oil out of the unit when I started, and I change it every year. There must be a certain amount of oil that sits too low to come out of the drain hole, and the sludge has built up over the years.

I’ve spent a bit of time this evening looking at parts lists and exploded diagrams as I was confused that the internals didn’t match my spare set.

When I first picked the engine up 4yrs ago it had a split in the bullet of the gear case, but amazingly I managed to pick up a used unit that I was told came off a late carbed model. It fitted so I used it, and I stripped the internals out of the original unit to keep as spares. These parts matched the parts in the exploded diagram for my 1998EFI engine that I downloaded from the Browns Point Suzuki website, so I thought no more about it.

Looking at my Genuine Suzuki workshop manual today I’ve discovered that the gearbox internals changed in 1991 for the ‘M’ model, 7 years before my 1998EFI engine. But crucially the internals I’ve just stripped out of the current unit are correct for a post 1991 engine.

I’ve concluded the following.
-The Diagram and Parts list brought up on the Browns Point Suzuki website for my 1998 engine are incorrect. My Genuine Suzuki Workshop manual shows these to be for a pre 1991 engine.

-The Gearbox internals that were in the engine when I brought it were from an older pre-1991 engine.

-The replacement unit I picked up 4yrs ago had the correct internals for my engine, but has been opened up before for some reason.

-When I drain the oil in future I’ll tilt the engine backwards and forwards to hopefully get more of the old oil out.

I’m going to clean everything up, replace all the oil seals and ‘O’ Rings, and put it back together when I get the replacement Stopper ring I’ve ordered.
I’ll strip and clean the change mechanism, to ensure its working correctly.
As I’m reusing all the current parts I shouldn’t need to re-shim it.

Nasher.

[chewy]

I think its great how nothing gets in your way and you just make a tool to do the job, good luck with the box mate.

[Downhilldai]

So, what do you reckon is the cause of losing reverse gear?

[Nasher]

Thanks Chewy.

I have to admit that I enjoy this type of thing far too much for it to be healthy.

The thought that Outboard engineers charge @£50 an hour also helps.

Nasher.

[Nasher]

Originally Posted by Downhilldai

So, what do you reckon is the cause of losing reverse gear?

I'm hoping a combination of removing the sludge, taking the edges off the Dog Clutch, and making sure the internal mechanism for the change is in tip top condition will sort it.

If that doesn't work I'm a bit stuck at the moment, but at least I'll know the gearbox is in good shape.

Nasher.

[Downhilldai]

Hmmm, odd one. I was almost certain your clutch dog and gear would be worn out.
Good luck with the rebuild.

[Nasher]

All

Please ignore my previous major post, it was complete Bollocks

Embarrassingly I had everything Arse about Face.

Something just wasn’t making sense to me, and I wasn’t comfortable with what I was doing, so I went back to first principles.
Very significantly this was partly because I was missing Reverse gear, yet the dog clutch for reverse looked a lot better than the Forward gear end.

This time I took more notice of the description of the ‘new for 1991’ gearbox internals in the genuine Suzuki manual I have.
The penny dropped when I found one line of text. This line states that ‘a new Counter Rotating gearbox was developed for 1991’, there is then 12 pages of detail without the counter rotating bit being mentioned. -

So basically Browns Point website was correct, and I’ve been running a counter rotating gearbox in reverse with a standard prop for the last few years. The mistake probably happened as I changed the control lever at the same time as the gearbox, and worked backwards from the Prop to decide which way to assemble the insides of the control box.

The reverse gear internals of the CR box are the same as those for forward on the std box, and the forward gear internals are beefed up versions of the std reverse, the differences include extra thrust bearings, bigger shaft sizes and a different Dog Clutch shifter because of the shaft size.
The Dog Clutch Shifter is stronger for the CR Forward than CR reverse, so I’ve been lucky it’s lasted, but it is concentric about its middle, so I can just turn it 180degs and will end up with a box which is as strong, if not stronger, as a std box in what I’m using as forward, but stronger than a std box in what I’m using as reverse.

It also explains why the Dog Clutch was damaged, as the bigger dogs don’t have as much room to drop into mesh when I’m crashing into reverse.

However I’ve been trying to order the unique to the CR gearbox Dog Clutch Shifter.
From a brief internet search I discovered two US distributers who list the part, and have quoted delivery from the US to my door in the UK in @5-7days for a total cost of @£90.

I contacted 3 local dealers, they could not find the part number, and so did not want to help. One did agree that they could not find a parts list for the counter rotating gearbox, and that “it must be on there”. Having waited 3 days for them to contact Suzuki UK I decided to contact a dealer further afield for help.

www.imsupplies.co.uk have been very helpful, however they are now being held up by Suzuki UKs apathy

They too could not find the part Number, but like me found it on the Browns Point Suzuki website, so contacted Suzuki UK on my behalf to enquire about sourcing it.
They and I were surprised by the reaction they received.
They were told the part was not on the Suzuki UK system, but it could be added, this would take 1 week, and only then would they be able to order it. They were then given a price of £200 to pass on to me.

Obviously I’m going to be placing an order with Browns point later tonight, and I’ve sent Suzuki UK a snotty email.

In the mean time I’ve cleaned everything up and made a special tool to wind the retaining ring back in.
I did consider machining the old Dog Clutch Shifter, but realised I’d have to be really accurate, and it’s probably case hardened anyway.

More to come

Nasher

[Mollers]

Amazing! A ran a LH prop on a RH Merc Alpha One outdrive for about 6Nm and wrecked the bearing carrier.

[bedajim]

Originally Posted by Mollers

Amazing! A ran a LH prop on a RH Merc Alpha One outdrive for about 6Nm and wrecked the bearing carrier.

Hay are those Etecs left hookers. could explain the bearing life

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by bedajim

Hay are those Etecs left hookers. could explain the bearing life

You'll be getting a left hook if you don't belt-up!

[Nasher]

Originally Posted by Mollers

Amazing! A ran a LH prop on a RH Merc Alpha One outdrive for about 6Nm and wrecked the bearing carrier.

Bugger - But I suppose you were using the weaker (reverse side) of a std RH box where as I'm lucky that the reverse gear set and bearings on the LH box are the std forward set from a RH box - Does that make sense?

Nasher.

[PeterM]

So I've re-read the various LH/RH/ CR/ FW/ reverse posts about 18 times! and in my mind have summed up that it was 'arse about face' - this being the technical lingo I can deal with.

Fingers crossed the 'bit' arrives and is fixed. I know who to go to now if I ever have gearbox problems. Good stuff.

Pete

[Nasher]

Having a bit of a disagreement with Suzuki UK customer services at the moment.

I sent them an email asking amongst other things:-
Was the CR gearbox was ever officially available to UK customers?
If so, why are the CR gearbox parts not on the Suzuki UK system?
Why does it take a week to add a part to their system?

They keep avoiding the questions above, but have explained the cost difference is due to a ‘surcharge’.

They wouldn’t even look at my queries until I’d given them the Serial Number of the engine which I explained is irrelevant as it has been fitted with a counter rotating gearbox which I purchased separately used. I believe the Gearbox itself is not serial numbered.

To play fair I gave them the Serial Number anyway, and of course they’ve discovered that as I knew already the engine somehow found its way to the UK from Canada where it was sold new.
Now they are claiming that the engine was imported so the parts are not available in the UK.
They do not seam able to grasp the concept of separating the Gearbox from the main body of the engine, hence my insistence that they answer my specific questions above.

I’ll let you know how I get on.

Nasher

[aquatec]

Hi Nasher, sorry you seem to have had problems with Suzuki GB. I am the Suzuki Main Dealer for Sussex and previous to that I was Marine Service Manager at Suzuki in the Heron days at Croydon and Crawley. So to assist, I have found the parts list on the system. The C/R Clutch Dog Part no:57621-88D03, I have been given a guide price of £200/210 retail. The part is available in Europe and from Monday will be on the Suzuki GB system as they are intergrating with Germany, France and Italy.
I understand you will be purchasing from US but if you need any more info call me.
01903 762610
Gordon Sutherland

[Nasher]

Gordon

It's very kind of you to take an interest, and no doubt I'll be in touch at some stage about some other part I need. A little faith has been restored in Suzuki by your offer of help.
The joys of owning a slightly older outboard I suppose, and attempting to work on it myself.

I do still like my big Suzuki 2-strokes though.

It’s interesting that you found the part after 2 local dealers told me the part does not exist. I'd given them the part no. having found it for myself on Browns Points website.
Although International Marine supplies, who I’ve nothing but praise for, did follow my lead and find it on the Browns Point site.

Incidentally one local dealer has lost my custom for my consumables over this after refusing to believe me that the part existed, and getting all high and mighty with me about how he had 30yrs experience and knew what he was talking about. He obviously didn’t know much in this case

I've already ordered the part from Browns Point and paid $143 with an expected delivery early next week, so I’m afraid I won’t be paying Suzuki UK another £100 odd pounds for the privilege of waiting for them to do something.

Suzuki UK Customer services have wound me up a little by avoiding answering my questions, and by refusing to separate the gearbox as a unit from the rest of the engine.
They are also completely unconcerned about a customer who is off the water and being ripped off with a Surcharge.

It’s good to see that the part will be added to the system, but I wonder how many people will end up paying the surcharge in the future, despite Suzuki UK telling me it was for adding the part to the system.
I’m sure if I try again in a few months it will still be £200.

Thanks again for your offer of help, I’ll try not to give you any cause to regret it.

Nasher

[Nasher]

Just had another reply from Suzuki UK customer services

"Our Parts Department have advised that the counter rotating gearboxes were not available to UK customers when new"

I'll take their word for it, despite all the twin engine set ups around and the fact that they were reasonably popular race engines set up in twins.

"In response to your main concern we can advise that normally a part number would be added immediately via a non UK request form however as we are currently changing to a new parts ordering system we are unable to set up new parts until next week"

Well thats OK then, your customers can wait while you sort it out

Nasher

[JSP]

Just been reading through all this Nasher. Surprised if you haven't gained a few grey hairs mate!!
Hope it works out fine for ya

[Downhilldai]

It's shocking how much we are charged for outboard parts in the UK compared to the US.
I've just bought a flo-torq prop hub kit from across the pond, costing less than in the UK.

[JSP]

Originally Posted by Downhilldai

It's shocking how much we are charged for outboard parts in the UK compared to the US.
I've just bought a flo-torq prop hub kit from across the pond, costing less than in the UK.

I've never had to buy OB parts yet (touch wood) but I do know it applies to other things. I used to buy lenses for my cameras over in the states as the savings made the lack of warranty worth wail sometimes. Once saved £400 even after shipping!!
Cue codders

[Dirk Diggler]

Originally Posted by Downhilldai

It's shocking how much we are charged for outboard parts in the UK compared to the US.
I've just bought a flo-torq prop hub kit from across the pond, costing less than in the UK.

Plastic or solid?