Do simple engines still exist?

[BogMonster]

This is only a question for "general interest" - just sort of window shopping on the RIBcraft website (again) and I wondered something....

Of all the new outboards you can buy these days, are there any which still run a basic carb system i.e. no engine electronics? The reason being that there are no dealers in this part of the world so if I did find myself in a fortunate enough position to go for a nice shiny new RIB, I wouldn't want to end up with an engine that might have a little electronic gremlin that couldn't be fixed down here. I'd probably go for a four stroke and the one I have my eye on is the Suzuki DF140 but a major concern is that it appears to be all electronic fuel injection - great until it goes wrong. What about the 2 strokes like Etecs and Opti's - I guess they are all packed with electrickery as well?

Does anybody know how complicated modern outboards are to diagnose/what sort of kit is required/whether it is available to Joe Public or whether it is dealer restricted?

For instance, if you buy a new Land Rover these days you need an expensive computer to diagnose it, but the system is available (at a price) to aftermarket garages, and there are other diagnostic systems that can read trouble codes etc. which are much cheaper, some of these just use a normal laptop PC and have an interface unit which plugs into the laptop and the vehicle and lets them talk to each other - these start at only a few hundred pounds.

The little engines still seem to have carbs - my new aux does anyway which is great as I can bang it out on the bench if the worst comes to the worst - but anything over 100hp seems to be electronic.

I'm not looking to buy anything just yet but I'm just wondering about the pitfalls if my share options come up trumps....

[jyasaki]

Don't know about other makes, but you can get the harness and computer software (regular Windows PC) for Yamaha outboards so as to be able to do all the nifty electronics hashing the factory techs do. As I recall, the software was about $200US (don't quote mo on this); don't remember what interconnection stuff ran.

jky

[BogMonster]

Good, thanks, so there are options then it shouldn't be hard to do of course, its just whether the manufacturers make the system available to customers or not. I think on cars there was an EU directive which forced companies like Land Rover to do this, the original Testbook system wasn't available to anybody apart from dealers, but I've no idea whether the same rules were applied to things like outboards, with it being a much smaller market possibly not...

Does anybody do DIY on a Suzuki?

I should say that I don't have a massive hang up about engine electronics as I work with them regularly on vehicles, but you DO need to have the right diagnostic ability otherwise you are just blundering around in the dark when it comes to dodgy sensors, and I am sure the same will apply on outboards...

[Jelly]

I think Yamaha do a the Enduro range ie old style carb 2 strokes for regions that are remote!
Rgds
Jelly

[Nick Hearne]

Johnson still do carb range for the less advanced parts of the world!

[ian parkes]

honda up to 90 is on carbs

[BogMonster]

Thanks all.

What about the possibilities of DIY engine diagnostics on other engines, particularly the Suzuki DF140?

I'm fairly set on a 4 stroke next time because I've never really liked 2 stroke engines in anything. I don't know what the weight limit is on the Ribcraft 5.85 but assuming it may be 200kg the DF140 seems to be about the only engine in that sort of size that comes in under that figure. I'd almost certainly go for this combination of engine and boat if funds allow.... next year when I'm over in the UK I am going to pay a visit to Ribcraft (if they welcome visitors to look around!) to check out the options and do some more serious thinking...

If I can get the kit to persuade my laptop to talk to it for a reasonable cost, that would be the way to go, I currently own an old-tech engine that burns an obscene amount of fuel and I know what it costs to run so I'd rather go with a new-tech economical one but ONLY if I can get the kit to support it....

[Turbodiesel]

Mariner still do loads of 2 stroke engines with carbs.

[Searider]

Turbodiesel,

Is the DDT software available for laptops? Sure I saw a dealer plug a laptop into an engine recently as well as the DDT.

Would make diagnosing intermittant faults quicker without having to drag the boat to a dealer each time it coughed.

Only interested in doing this on my own engine.

Can plug my computer into my car (1995 VW) and view all sorts of information.

[Matt]

This appears to be a contradiction. One the one hand you're asking for a simple motor, on the other saying you prefer a more complicated one.
If you want the least complex easiest to maintain motor, a 2 stroke carbed motor wins hands down every time.

Originally Posted by BogMonster

Thanks all.
I'm fairly set on a 4 stroke next time because I've never really liked 2 stroke engines in anything.

[BogMonster]

Originally Posted by MadMat

This appears to be a contradiction. One the one hand you're asking for a simple motor, on the other saying you prefer a more complicated one.
If you want the least complex easiest to maintain motor, a 2 stroke carbed motor wins hands down every time.

It is sort of a contradiction, sorry. What I mean (i.e. the bottom line) is that I want something I can fix. The question sort of developed half way through the thread. There is no dealer backup for any sort of outboard here, if it went wrong and couldn't be fixed it would have to be shipped back to the UK (16000 mile round trip! and losing the thing for 3 months at least). An EFI engine, if it can be got with diagnostic kit to enable me to sort it out (I do engine diagnostics on vehicles at work so am familiar with the technology involved in electronic engine management) is preferred on the grounds of fuel efficiency. But I also know (from work) that you are pretty much stuffed if you don't have the proper diagnostic kit because you get into a hideously expensive "change that sensor/ecu/whatever and see if it makes any difference" circle at tens or hundreds of pounds per component (not to mention three or four weeks to get it to this part of the world), so if I couldn't be sure of getting the right kit to do the job, I'd stick with a carb'ed engine.

My preference would therefore be a 4 stroke EFI if I can get a complete setup, or an old tech carb engine if I can't.

[The Garfish]

Originally Posted by BogMonster

There is no dealer backup for any sort of outboard here

de anser iz simpul mi sun.

yew jus aply too beecum de soozooki deeler forr de sowf atalantic. yewl gett a ful sett ov speshilized tewls an a DTD

fuk mee iym a jeenius

gaRf

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by Searider

Turbodiesel,

Is the DDT software available for laptops? Sure I saw a dealer plug a laptop into an engine recently as well as the DDT.

Would make diagnosing intermittant faults quicker without having to drag the boat to a dealer each time it coughed.

Only interested in doing this on my own engine.

Can plug my computer into my car (1995 VW) and view all sorts of information.

You either have the DDT or a laptop which does the Verados as well - the software isn't available on its own and it needs to connect to the States for verification to make it work - so even a copy on your laptop won't do anything!

The answer is get a DDT - about £750 second hand or go to as dealer!

[Turbodiesel]

Originally Posted by Searider

Turbodiesel,

Is the DDT software available for laptops? Sure I saw a dealer plug a laptop into an engine recently as well as the DDT.

Would make diagnosing intermittant faults quicker without having to drag the boat to a dealer each time it coughed.

Only interested in doing this on my own engine.

Can plug my computer into my car (1995 VW) and view all sorts of information.

Yes It is available on a laptop, but its very expensive, and i think it might be available to dealers only, but im sure you could get hold of one!. The DDT is ok but they have stopped making it, so updated cartridges are no longer available for newer engines.

[mdt]

Originally Posted by BogMonster

It is sort of a contradiction, sorry. What I mean (i.e. the bottom line) is that I want something I can fix. The question sort of developed half way through the thread. There is no dealer backup for any sort of outboard here, if it went wrong and couldn't be fixed it would have to be shipped back to the UK (16000 mile round trip! and losing the thing for 3 months at least). An EFI engine, if it can be got with diagnostic kit to enable me to sort it out (I do engine diagnostics on vehicles at work so am familiar with the technology involved in electronic engine management) is preferred on the grounds of fuel efficiency. But I also know (from work) that you are pretty much stuffed if you don't have the proper diagnostic kit because you get into a hideously expensive "change that sensor/ecu/whatever and see if it makes any difference" circle at tens or hundreds of pounds per component (not to mention three or four weeks to get it to this part of the world), so if I couldn't be sure of getting the right kit to do the job, I'd stick with a carb'ed engine.

My preference would therefore be a 4 stroke EFI if I can get a complete setup, or an old tech carb engine if I can't.

If you are looking at a “simple” means of powering a RIB why not go for an inboard diesel as an option. At least you can still get some healthy BHP (and torque) with out lots of ECU’s and things that are going to be hard to come by out your way? As you keep saying might as well buy top quality stuff as there is not any point in shipping second rate kit out to your end of the world.
Got to admit it is quite an eye opener when you realize the other factors you are having to take into account when buying things, living out there and having to get everything shipped 8000+ miles.

[Mark Halliday]

Stephen

Tohatsu still sell 115/120/140 carb engines. Not the most stylish or most economical engine around, but they seem to be bullet proof.
They have electronic ignition and that is about as hi-tech as it gets.

[BogMonster]

Originally Posted by mdt

If you are looking at a “simple” means of powering a RIB why not go for an inboard diesel as an option. At least you can still get some healthy BHP (and torque) with out lots of ECU’s and things that are going to be hard to come by out your way? As you keep saying might as well buy top quality stuff as there is not any point in shipping second rate kit out to your end of the world.
Got to admit it is quite an eye opener when you realize the other factors you are having to take into account when buying things, living out there and having to get everything shipped 8000+ miles.

Mainly price - I may be wrong (not really looked in to it) but I get the impression that the inboard diesel setups are a LOT more cash than an outboard? It'll be nip and tuck whether I can scrape together enough cash for a Ribcraft 5.85 with a DF140 on and I suspect if I went diesel it would add a lot to the price?

Living here just requires a little forward planning and self-sufficiency that's all

Mark, thanks, noted.

Garf's idea is not a bad one actually, it's been done before with other stuff and you can get some good discounts on stuff if you are the dealer

[mike]

The tohatsu came up as most economical (90hp) on a test I read this am aginst the suzuki 90, the opti and the etec!!!! Its also really simple and as already said very robust. They are dated but as you are the only bloke down there who will have a shiny boat who cares!!! ( I hasen to add it was only rated as best for cruising)

The test was found by typing "tohatsu test" onto google it comes up half way down page one of the bass articles.
The details a bit err non existant but it was complimentary about the engine.
Not a 3 star eco job though!

[IBWET]

might be worth taking a chance (which is easy sitting here in the UK )but I would have thought about putting the problem to the engine manufacturer ? the thing that seems to concern you most is the assessing of the problem, the part if you need one will have to be shipped anyway, maybe worth exploring the possibility of a link via internet/browser technology that would allow the manufacturer to plug into the engine remotely? identify the issue send the part...if they can, they might, given the uniqueness of the situation.

Obviously you will need your connection down there, maybe if there is a boat in it for the hull manufacturer they could organise for you.

[BogMonster]

Originally Posted by IBWET

might be worth taking a chance (which is easy sitting here in the UK )but I would have thought about putting the problem to the engine manufacturer ? the thing that seems to concern you most is the assessing of the problem, the part if you need one will have to be shipped anyway, maybe worth exploring the possibility of a link via internet/browser technology that would allow the manufacturer to plug into the engine remotely? identify the issue send the part...if they can, they might, given the uniqueness of the situation.

Obviously you will need your connection down there, maybe if there is a boat in it for the hull manufacturer they could organise for you.

Good idea the engine dealer I currently get spares from does a fair bit of business with people down here so understands the problems, I'm not sure what makes of engine he covers, mostly seems to be Johnsons but I suppose its worth asking "what if I bought a new one" - though the most likely purchase is a package deal from Ribcraft so he may be less interested in helping me.