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Old 21 December 2013, 02:26   #11
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I'd drain the tanks under gravity and pass the fuel through a filter cloth to rough it. Store it in an IBC while I clean the tanks up+ fit a bottom drain so you can easily drain any crap in future without the hassle work required this time.
Then you could have a cheap cartridge filter rig to polish the fuel up on refilling.
This could also be plumbed into your tank drains for off line polishing of the tanks on a weekly basis.

Sorry I'm on my iPhone in bed after the works do sampling a lot of cold filtered
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Old 21 December 2013, 03:17   #12
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I'd drain the tanks under gravity and pass the fuel through a filter cloth to rough it. Store it in an IBC while I clean the tanks up+ fit a bottom drain so you can easily drain any crap in future without the hassle work required this time.
Then you could have a cheap cartridge filter rig to polish the fuel up on refilling.
This could also be plumbed into your tank drains for off line polishing of the tanks on a weekly basis.

Sorry I'm on my iPhone in bed after the works do sampling a lot of cold filtered

'morning Jim..... long time no speak ;-)

How's you then?

Simon

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Old 21 December 2013, 04:54   #13
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willk,

I think bedajim talks sense.

Dipslides are probably more useful for trend monitoring than a one off - without controlled incubation conditions, and previous experience you'll just know there is stuff there (almost inevitable).

Is this the time of year to be doing this? Presumably there is a reasonable risk you will lose power for a couple of days, and need it all in an operational state?
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Old 21 December 2013, 04:57   #14
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We are looking at something along the same idea to scrub the derv in the raceboat. We are thinking that a couple of centrifuge filters to see if there's any water or crap in the derv. We want it to be automatic so we are looking at putting a drain off that is activate by the water sensor on the bowl
We will leave it going overnight to recycle the fuel. Early day for this but I've got it in my head so it will get done
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Old 21 December 2013, 06:27   #15
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willk,


Dipslides are probably more useful for trend monitoring than a one off - without controlled incubation conditions, and previous experience you'll just know there is stuff there (almost inevitable)
Bollox

A dip slide test will show bacterial percentage and allow you to see just how bad your fuel is.

Even if you've never performed a test before, a dip slide can be compared to a reference chart ( included with the test) which will show how bad the contamination actually is.
Incubation period is usually 24-48 hours after the slide is replaced in its sealed container.

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Old 21 December 2013, 06:50   #16
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Fuel Polishing System - overview

Here you go Wilk - I have a continuous running system on big Indaba which I bought from West Marine $650. This is not as industrial as the Separ system. Many marine systems for big boats would suit your purpose.
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Old 21 December 2013, 07:29   #17
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Bollox

A dip slide test will show bacterial percentage and allow you to see just how bad your fuel is.

Even if you've never performed a test before, a dip slide can be compared to a reference chart ( included with the test) which will show how bad the contamination actually is.
Incubation period is usually 24-48 hours after the slide is replaced in its sealed container.

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Simon, I really do know what I am talking about! I'd hazard a guess I've done more dipslides than you've helmed tugs.

- Dipslides don't measure "bacterial percentage"
- A displide for a fuel tank should not only be measuring bacteria (as its generally regarded that the biggest problems are fungal)
- Displides are sensitive to their incubation conditions. If you leave them 48 hours in an airing cupboard you'll get different results from if you leave them in a proper controlled incubator. The former can be ok as an indicator of changes from time to time - but without proper control gives little information on a specific site.
- All microbiological procedures are very sensitive to sampling technique. You've got 400+ L of fuel, and are going to sample 0.1 mL (typically) so will be looking at a 1 in four million snap shot of the system. If its high / low how sure would you be that the whole system is/isn't a problem.
- Its almost inevitable that something will grow on the slide, if you leave it long enough, with fuel thats been in those sort of storage conditions. So you need a rational approach to how you are going to deal with the growth you see - willk's already planning to clean/polish anyway. You'd want to follow up to be sure any treatment has been effective, and as it only takes one spore somewhere in the system (almost impossible to remove) to reseed the system - so you need to keep an eye on it.
- I've never done a quality comparison on fuel displides but I have looked at variability on those used in water testing - and there is essentially little standardisation, so (i) depending which media is used, (ii) depending on the manufacturer (many are made by the same factory and just labelled), (iii) the age, shipping and storage conditions of the slide can all impact on performance.
- All dipslides are selective (to varying extents) for what they grow, its very likely that if you get half a dozen colonies of the target organisms growing that you have a whole load of other stuff in there too.

I'm not suggesting dip slides are not a useful tool for monitoring tanks - but a single test result tells you very little. If he cleans his tank and is still worried then running a dipslide as part of the routine maintenance and keeping a track of the trend would be far more use and early warning of growth than a single data point before he goes and disturbs the whole system. I know Willk has a scientific bent deep down and will get the point I am making.
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Old 21 December 2013, 08:14   #18
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Simon, I really do know what I am talking about! I'd hazard a guess I've done more dipslides than you've helmed tugs.

- Dipslides don't measure "bacterial percentage"
- A displide for a fuel tank should not only be measuring bacteria (as its generally regarded that the biggest problems are fungal)
- Displides are sensitive to their incubation conditions. If you leave them 48 hours in an airing cupboard you'll get different results from if you leave them in a proper controlled incubator. The former can be ok as an indicator of changes from time to time - but without proper control gives little information on a specific site.
- All microbiological procedures are very sensitive to sampling technique. You've got 400+ L of fuel, and are going to sample 0.1 mL (typically) so will be looking at a 1 in four million snap shot of the system. If its high / low how sure would you be that the whole system is/isn't a problem.
- Its almost inevitable that something will grow on the slide, if you leave it long enough, with fuel thats been in those sort of storage conditions. So you need a rational approach to how you are going to deal with the growth you see - willk's already planning to clean/polish anyway. You'd want to follow up to be sure any treatment has been effective, and as it only takes one spore somewhere in the system (almost impossible to remove) to reseed the system - so you need to keep an eye on it.
- I've never done a quality comparison on fuel displides but I have looked at variability on those used in water testing - and there is essentially little standardisation, so (i) depending which media is used, (ii) depending on the manufacturer (many are made by the same factory and just labelled), (iii) the age, shipping and storage conditions of the slide can all impact on performance.
- All dipslides are selective (to varying extents) for what they grow, its very likely that if you get half a dozen colonies of the target organisms growing that you have a whole load of other stuff in there too.

I'm not suggesting dip slides are not a useful tool for monitoring tanks - but a single test result tells you very little. If he cleans his tank and is still worried then running a dipslide as part of the routine maintenance and keeping a track of the trend would be far more use and early warning of growth than a single data point before he goes and disturbs the whole system. I know Willk has a scientific bent deep down and will get the point I am making.
So I supose you believe vibration analysis is useless unless used as part of a trend process?

I recently had to call in VA specialists to help diagnose a problem with a large thrust bearing running hot. We had never performed VA on this particular drive train but almost instantly, through one set of measurements, we had diagnosed the problem!

Now you can quote all kind of stuff regarding FW but a diesel dip slide will instantly give you an idea as to any contamination problems irrespective of whether or not it's used as part of a trend process. It's for this reason that I suggested I send, free of charge I might add, a couple dip slides to willk.

You are right about one thing though, you probably have taken more slides than I have helmed tugs......

For future reference, I don't helm tugs, I manage the technical side of a fleet of them (7 of them last time I looked) and, at the last count, had circa 700000ltrs of diesel under my responsibility.

Finally, try this for size

Www.kmtlabs.com/producttestkits.aspx

Simon

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Old 21 December 2013, 08:47   #19
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Simon,

I don't know anything about Vibration Analysis. I'm not sure I follow the analogy. However, perhaps you can think of it as being a bit like the engineer who said something was wrong and he wanted help finding the problem with the expert vibration system. He noticed it because he feels or hears the vibration every day and spotted it was getting worse. Until it is so bad that everything is shaking then a random person walking in might not spot anything amiss, they have no reference on what is normal. Its an engine there will always be some vibration.

Look at that 'advice' on that link ANY growth requires a biocide. What I am saying is I would be amazed if Willk tested a tank thats been sitting that long, has had a load of 'dodgy' fuel in it etc - and it doesn't have SOME growth.

Competitors will tell you only to worry/treat if you have higher levels of contamination - there is no accepted standard.

And many suppliers suggest dipslides should not be used directly on the fuel, only the water phase. That's kind of my point, there is a load of (mis)information around, and without building up your own expertise on what is normal for your situation.

However Willk's wise enough to be suspect of any good result if the fuel looks crap, has rust floating around in it and a load of water there etc; or a worrying result on good looking fuel. The bigger picture matters as much as the value - if everything is ripe for bio growth then even if the system is actually low today it will grow eventually.
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Old 21 December 2013, 09:50   #20
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Poly

Of course you don't know much about VA, your not an engineer....So why try to tell an engineer how its done?

Nice to hear you admit to a lack of knowledge in something though...

The analogy is that traditionally VA is used as part of a wider trending system where a historical record can be built up of a particular system or component. This is similar to what you were referring to when you talked about trending using dip slides.

VA, much like diesel dip slides, can also prove very effective at "on the spot" diagnosing of a particular system as in the example i gave you about the power train.

I fail to understand, that after showing you EXACTLY what type of dip slides i am referring to, you cannot see the advantage of me offering to send a few slides up to Willk?? Willk admitted that the fuel he has in store is potentially "buggy" so i offered to send him a few slides.

This would have given him an immediate indication of a potential issue.

Considering your such an expert on dip slides, why not tell us all what other indicators to look out for when suspecting biological fuel contamination....and i don't simply mean an increase in sludge/water build-up.

To be honest this has turned into the usual tiresome "baffle then with bulls**t" routine whereby long winded technical replies get given in response to what was a simple issue....and for that reason .............. I'm out!

Anyway have to get back to driving a tug apparently.

Simon
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