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Old 03 February 2008, 06:24   #1
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carbon flow fuel catylist

anyone had any experience of this


http://www.carbonflo.com/
Was talking to an engineer the other day He said it increases fuel economy cleans carbon out of engine, frees up older tight engines. Aparrently in the early stages of its use you do need to keep an eye on your oil pressure as oil filters clog up.

Was wondering of anybody has used this either outboard or deisel inboard

Damian
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Old 03 February 2008, 07:28   #2
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A catalyst is something which is NOT supposed to react with the product it comes into contact with - it remains unchanged.

Tin as an additive in petrol can be beneficial but with a catalyst no tin will end up in the fuel.

In other words it's a load of crap!!!
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Old 03 February 2008, 07:29   #3
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Originally Posted by hobbit555 View Post
anyone had any experience of this


http://www.carbonflo.com/
Was talking to an engineer the other day He said it increases fuel economy cleans carbon out of engine, frees up older tight engines. Aparrently in the early stages of its use you do need to keep an eye on your oil pressure as oil filters clog up.

Was wondering of anybody has used this either outboard or deisel inboard

Damian
Are you sure he was an engineer? I wouldn't let anyone work on an engine that was fooled by that! Everything on the carbonflo site is complete bollocks designed to hook double glazing salesmen.

A catalyst needs to be present at the point of reaction (ie the fuel burn) to actually do anything. As the 'carbonflo' thingy sits in the fuel tank and is 'never used up' then it's impossible for it to do anything.
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Old 03 February 2008, 07:59   #4
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Originally Posted by codprawn View Post
A catalyst is something which is NOT supposed to react with the product it comes into contact with - it remains unchanged.

Tin as an additive in petrol can be beneficial but with a catalyst no tin will end up in the fuel.

In other words it's a load of crap!!!
Codprawn, lets be clear I am not saying this system does or does not work - but what you have written is a load of crap!

Catalysts can react with the product - they just get regenerated - so at the end of the process you have the same amount of catalyst as at the start. You are suggesting catalysts are inert - which is bollox. If that were the case the Catalytic converter in your car would be pointless. Rather the CO reacts on the catalyst to form CO2.

If you actually read their claims - they don't suggest the tin ends up in the fuel. They quite rightly suggest that tin can catalyse organic chemical reactions (as a heterogeneous catalyst the molecules in the fuel become temporarily bound to the surface of the tin, undergo a chemical reaction (which by being bound to the surface of the tin has a lower activation energy than it would without the tin).
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Old 03 February 2008, 08:04   #5
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A catalyst needs to be present at the point of reaction (ie the fuel burn) to actually do anything. As the 'carbonflo' thingy sits in the fuel tank and is 'never used up' then it's impossible for it to do anything.
It is quite reasonable that it can modify the chemical structure of the fuel itself to make it burn more efficiently in the engine (whether it works - or the modified fuel can do any harm (e.g. to seals on fuel pumps) is another issue).

But as I said to codders - I am not claiming this works - just that their pseudo science is not quite as much nonsense as being suggested here.
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Old 03 February 2008, 08:48   #6
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It is quite reasonable that it can modify the chemical structure of the fuel itself to make it burn more efficiently in the engine (whether it works - or the modified fuel can do any harm (e.g. to seals on fuel pumps) is another issue).
No it's not.

The product of a reaction (unless it's had heat input in certain conditions) will always be less reactive at room temperature than the component parts.
All a catalyst will do is to reduce the amount of energy needed for that reaction to take place.

Ergo, all this device can produce (unless it's the catalyst in a fairly rapid endothermic reaction) is a fuel with less energy...


And I agree, it's pseudoscience.
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Old 03 February 2008, 12:04   #7
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The product of a reaction (unless it's had heat input in certain conditions) will always be less reactive at room temperature than the component parts.
I don't think you mean reactive there - since reactive is a "relative" term it depends what it is reacting with - e.g. hydrogen + oxygen --> water . But water is more reactive with some things (e.g. sodium) than either hydrogen or oxygen.

I guess what you were suggesting was that the product of a reaction will have a lower free energy/heat of formation than the reactants. That is not always the case - as you refer to yourself, endothermic reactions result in products with higher heat of formation than the reagents. Indeed a catalyst would be particularly helpful in sustaining such a reaction without heating.

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All a catalyst will do is to reduce the amount of energy needed for that reaction to take place.
agreed
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Ergo, all this device can produce (unless it's the catalyst in a fairly rapid endothermic reaction) is a fuel with less energy...
even if that were the case it doesn't mean that the catalyst is not having an effect on the fuel or even (potentially) that the modified fuel is more efficient. As an example, if the modified fuel has 2% less energy but is >2% more effective at releasing that energy in a controlled way then you gain efficiency. Although they don't explicitily say so on their website it sounds like they are implying an increase in octane value, if that results in more controlled combustion it is not implausible that you actually get more energy out (bear in mind that in normal combustion there are unburnt hydrocarbons and CO (which can be combusted to CO2) coming out the exhaust - if you can effeciently burn them in the cylinder you can get more energy out.
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Old 03 February 2008, 13:50   #8
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Codprawn, lets be clear I am not saying this system does or does not work - but what you have written is a load of crap!

Catalysts can react with the product - they just get regenerated - so at the end of the process you have the same amount of catalyst as at the start. You are suggesting catalysts are inert - which is bollox. If that were the case the Catalytic converter in your car would be pointless. Rather the CO reacts on the catalyst to form CO2.

If you actually read their claims - they don't suggest the tin ends up in the fuel. They quite rightly suggest that tin can catalyse organic chemical reactions (as a heterogeneous catalyst the molecules in the fuel become temporarily bound to the surface of the tin, undergo a chemical reaction (which by being bound to the surface of the tin has a lower activation energy than it would without the tin).
I don't see the word "inert" in anything I have written.

I always thought this satement was true "A catalyst is a substance that increases the speed of a chemical reaction without being consumed by the reaction."

A true catalyst remains unchanged by the reaction which is what I said.

I also didn't say the tin ends up in the fuel - in fact the only way it would work is if the tin DID end up in the fuel.

So you see maybe it's not me whose spouting crap after all..............
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Old 03 February 2008, 14:40   #9
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In other words it's a load of crap!!!
I think so too. Here is another idea:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fuel-Saver-For...QQcmdZViewItem

Don't you think the car manufacturers would fit these as standard if they were effective ?

Pete
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Old 03 February 2008, 15:11   #10
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I think so too. Here is another idea:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fuel-Saver-For...QQcmdZViewItem

Don't you think the car manufacturers would fit these as standard if they were effective ?

Pete
Exactly - things like these have been around for many years.
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