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Old 18 February 2003, 04:38   #1
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Arctic 22 conversion to diesel inboard

Has anyone any knowledge of the practicality of converting an outboard arctic to run on a diesel inboard.
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Old 18 February 2003, 07:54   #2
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Hi Sekyd
Why? there are plenty of paciffic's about on the second hand market and converting the arctic would be a major job.
Re engining a paciffic might be an easier project.
Rgds
Jelly
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Old 18 February 2003, 16:45   #3
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I wouldnt do either,after buying a descent diesel and sticking it into a work boat,you will not have a brill boat but will of spent a brill amount of money,I looked at it and found I could not get insurance,you will have real difficulty in getting offshore use with it and it wasnt designed as a diesel boat ,so it will not be much good,on the sea as a designed diesel boat that has been designed for the weight will be different.There is a misconception here that if you have a petrol outboard boat,you can just stick a diesel in her and your problems are over,that may of been the case 2 yrs ago but things have changed,there is a difference in having maybe 300kg sat outside the boat with outboards and aprox 560kg inside the same hull its what is called Centre of gravity.The stability changes drasticaly and everything else for that matter.

Your problems will increase and your spends decrease.My advice keep it the same as it was designed for,or be the only collector of an oddball,the choice is yours.

Good luck
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Old 18 February 2003, 18:22   #4
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CH,
I agree with you that converting an Arctic probably wouldn't be worth doing for financial reasons as there are P22s for 8.5k for sale in Southampton and Lymington at the moment. However The Halmatic hulls are such a big lump of GRP actually 500 kg of diesel engine is only a third of the overall weight of the boat. I would be quite happy to bet that Halmatic have used the same plugs when designing both the Arctic and Pacific rather than have to make different ones therefore the hull shape will be identical. Note the shines did change over the years but this was part of the natural developement of the hulls. With some other makes of hull, converting your point is valid, certainly when Wavehumper and I looked at converting our Ribtecs (6.5m) diesel wasn't an option without going for mid engine layout and a huge amount of work. It would have been cheaper to buy new hull and swop the tubes over. It just depends on the hull, there was a great big Delta in Alderney a few years back that had a Diesel Volvo grafted into it and that worked quite well.

As far as insurance is concerned, never had a problem with an old rib, never been asked for CG curves, RCD catergories or ISO 12217 (what ever that is) and don't expect to in the future. What the companies do want on a hull over 10 years old is a survey both for pleasure and commercial boats. Marine surveyors do a special insurance one just for this reason. Assuming the boat is up together then never had a problem and if they do find a problem wouldn't you rather know about it in advance? Also there was team of divers in Dover that built there own 7m rib from scratch about 4 years ago (and I mean everything) fab rib with a P22 engine and stern drive in it. They didn't seem to have too many problems with balance etc.

I don't understand your point "that may have been the case 2 years ago" why what has changed ?

Finally just to bring the forum up to date with the MCA they have just informed me that I should plan on using the current MCA standards to code a rib as they will be very similar to the new version which is still being written.

Pete
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Old 18 February 2003, 20:08   #5
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Pete if its already a diesel hull designed for a diesel then your in with a chance in that it has the beam and freeboard to opperate ok as a work boat and may get yellow code 20 miles?

I am of the oppinion that the work boat only concept is fine if that is what your using her for,then at present the work boat catergories do not require stability tests for offshore use,eg yellow code 20 miles from a designated port.

The english channel is regarded to never have more than on average 2mtr high waves ,so in theory a Cat C leisure boat could get a work boat ticket with a range of 20 miles withought a major problem if opperating in this area,as the area it cruises or works in that must be within both sets of criteria.
The problem comes when a work boat is used for leisure purposes as it will clearly state it is a work boat on the reciept.Will the insurance boys honour this if there is a problem.?I dont know.The other side of the coin is that some practising surveyors have confessed to me that they are wrighting in exclusion clouses to there surveys and most people with older boats may have problems? I dont know.? I am going to get to the bottom of this as maybe I have been relieved of a considerable sum and made to conform to a potentiel problem in the future that doesnt exist or maybe could exist,I dont know?.I have asked by email the Mca for clarification on Cat C /B waters definitions and implications and had no responce,I have also asked for conformation on what happens if a work boat is sold to a leisure person for leisure use? and have had a number of different responces.

I have also asked what the warrantie issues are if a new work boat is sold to a leisure person and have been advised that in the trade they have been told to stipulate that it is a work boat on the invoice,so as to limit there warranties?. Its a nightmare out there and Im going to get to the bottom of it,We ran initially with a 30 ft boat that took twin 225 honda ,s and when we ran it through a autoship Cad programs it failed the Freeboard requirment for RCD with a diesel in it and it was a beamy boat, so we had to redesign to achieve the requirments to exeed,which meant we increased the length,so as to surpass the requirments for todays RCD which increases the freebord .It worries me as there are a lot of you out there who have boats on order and there are those who are contemplating putting big diesels into a rib that just cant pass todays stability tests for RCD offshore cat B becouse of the weight and you can do nothing with the length or beam becouse its to late,this is my personal oppinion.

Be aware it isnt easy as at present I dont even know what it means if you dont pass Cat B rcd,as there are more boats out there that dont than ones that do,Im a cynick and my feelings are that the insurance companies are happy bunnies as they have a get out clouses as long as your arms,the reason they arnt saying anything is they cant afford to loose all the buisness,and they will inform you all at a later date when it suits them all that unless your boat is Certified to B standared then you cant go offshore in it,and can only opperate within cat C areas,and they may also stippulate that all work boats used for pleasure may have to do the same thing or be stability tested,I know that certain boats cannot ever pass this test as it will not float high enough for the standards required for offshore cat B,as I floated a 30 ft boat with a big beam and it just doesnt work.

Im guessing here but it needs some carefull thought,if nothing else.The work boat code is not as strict as the RCD is for stability as there are no rules up to 20 miles yellow code, but there are for RCD cat B offshore leisure if opperated in waves over 2mtrs height and over f6?

I will report back if I am ever am sucsesfull at getting to the botton of it all?

Good luck




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Old 19 February 2003, 04:04   #6
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Hi Pete,
I thought the same as you on the arctic / Pacific base mold, but have started to wonder
I looked on halmatics web site and the arctic is 2.54m beam and the pacific is 2.44m - could this be different tubes ?
I was also told that pacifics have a flattened out keel area towards the stern that arctics don't have - haven't investigated this I have to move again which is severly interupting the boat replacement / boat use and you can guess whitch I would prefer to be doing!
Jelly
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Old 19 February 2003, 11:40   #7
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Jelly you are right about the planning weg for the P22 its huge and if I ever get it air borne it might slam, but as the boat weighs 1600 kgs little chance of that. still it might dry out upright

Didn't realise that the hulls were different widths, well spotted. The problem is though that most of the Halmatics coming on the market are now 20 years old. Thats not a problem assuming they have been looked after as they are very heavy duty (the hull of a P22 is probably 3/8" thick I will measure the training aid one in HMS Sultan on Saturday), but they have altered over the years, certainly the P22s have had a number of changes to the chines.

The biggest selling point though is for 8.5k you are in a diesel engined rib and using red at 25p a litre @ 6gph, now that apeals to me, I can afford to use it regularly. The Ribtec is 9gph and thats quite good. Seen a Ritec with Yam 200 V6 use 20 gph! ouch!

Pete
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Old 19 February 2003, 13:06   #8
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If you want to loose money and re,invent the wheel it isnt my problem.

If your saying for 8.5 k you can buy a diesel rib with engine in that hasnt got any noticible problems,then that does sound cheap.?

You usually will get what you pay for.

It was different a couple of yrs back when you could buy a Atlantick 21 for a few grand.

The insurance people are going to call the shots ,when I dont know..

Watch this space.

Good luck
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Old 23 February 2003, 11:44   #9
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Don't do it.! I had the same idea to try and make my Camel run a lot more economically.

I made a few enquiries and thought that it would be OK so I bought Mike Garsides engine from him, he gave me a fair deal on his Yamaha 165. hen when it came to planning the Job it just wasn't worth the hassle or compromise to the hull to fit the diesel. She was a bit short and heavy ( a bit like me!) and it didn't work out well.

I also think you'll have to redesign the Transom and that is a job you would have to get very right.

Basically, if you want to go diesel then do what Pete 7 says

By the way I am looking for an old Pacific hull with no tubes or engine to drop my 165 Yamaha in to.

Any body got one!.
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Old 24 February 2003, 04:29   #10
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Try

www.babcock.co.uk

quite a few bits worthy of note on here....
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