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Old 06 November 2011, 02:54   #21
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Ok
Tell me how then if ,you hire in or use a coded boat to run a course either Powerboat Intermediate Or Motor Cruising can you not have someone onboard who is commercially endorsed and responsible for the vessel.

This is usualy the Instructor so not a problem now it comes to the exam does your Instructor hop off waves a cheery goodbye and good luck chaps.

So now on the coded boat who is in charge as they bimble over to the Isle of Wight to pick up the examiner or vice versa the boat is being used for work purposes so on the way back from failing or pasing the exam they hit something or run aground who is in charge of the coded boat and responsible for the safety of it.


Let me know .
Tim
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Old 06 November 2011, 03:10   #22
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Thanks

Doug
Thank you for clarifying the position of a skipper aboard during the Advanced Powerboat Commercial examination.

Re the size/power of vessel used for the examination, I think there is room for the RYA to consider the position that if the 'driver's licence' they are examining is for commercial work then the vessel used should be to size and type relative to the licence. In the bus/coach world you don't take a test on a minibus and are then able to drive a 53 seater coach. When fitting out RIBs for coding we find it difficult to code a RIB for 12 + 2 sensibly with equipment and seats for all and fit it in a RIB less than 8.5m LOA.
I also appreciate that many commercial RIB operators act responsibly and vet all who drive for them to ensure they are 'to company standard'.
I appreciate the above is moving from the thread.

Tony
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Old 06 November 2011, 04:20   #23
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Doug


Re the size/power of vessel used for the examination, I think there is room for the RYA to consider the position that if the 'driver's licence' they are examining is for commercial work then the vessel used should be to size and type relative to the licence. In the bus/coach world you don't take a test on a minibus and are then able to drive a 53 seater coach. When fitting out RIBs for coding we find it difficult to code a RIB for 12 + 2 sensibly with equipment and seats for all and fit it in a RIB less than 8.5m LOA.
I also appreciate that many commercial RIB operators act responsibly and vet all who drive for them to ensure they are 'to company standard'.
I appreciate the above is moving from the thread.

Tony
I understand your point but remember the qualification allows you to skipper up to 24m. I think we all accept that a 8.5m RIB does not prepare you for a 23.5m hard boat. The qualification is not boat specific and if it was we would end up with a huge list of endorsements that would mean no one could go to work without spending fortunes first.

Much of the qualification however is very generic, in particular IRPCS, Pilotage, Bouyage, passage planning, safety briefing and so on.

This sort of conversation comes up quite regularly on RIBnet, there are a couple of regular contributors who complain that the RYA certificates do not prepare them enough for their specific boat. I sometimes think they fail to see the much bigger picture and realise that there are such a vast difference in boats out there that a training course can not teach you to drive every one and it would not be relevant for everyone. Imagine what you would say if your skippers had to train in 23m jet boats just because they might come across them in the commercial world, when you and them knew full well that they were never going to drive anything like that.

The RYA/MCA exam qualifies you to be a skipper. The individual employer then needs to train you as required on his specific vessel or employee people with experience of that vessel.

I cant to be honest see it working any other way and think therefore the training and the code have got it right on this point.
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Old 06 November 2011, 04:38   #24
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Originally Posted by tim griffin View Post
Ok
Tell me how then if ,you hire in or use a coded boat to run a course either Powerboat Intermediate Or Motor Cruising can you not have someone onboard who is commercially endorsed and responsible for the vessel.

This is usualy the Instructor so not a problem now it comes to the exam does your Instructor hop off waves a cheery goodbye and good luck chaps.

So now on the coded boat who is in charge as they bimble over to the Isle of Wight to pick up the examiner or vice versa the boat is being used for work purposes so on the way back from failing or pasing the exam they hit something or run aground who is in charge of the coded boat and responsible for the safety of it.


Let me know .
Tim
My honest advice to you would be not to have exam candidates bimbling about across the Solent in your boat before and after the exam. We have a simple system. The course ends at our centre, Instructor gets off, exam starts at our centre examiner gets on and yes you've guessed it, exam ends at our centre and examiner gets off.

However putting operational advice aside your question really is to do with the coding. I think I quoted the relevant part of the code earlier in this thread which basically says that when you hire the vessel bareboat manning requirements do not apply (as long as the boat is not working commercially).

In effect when we run a prep week, we hire the students the boat for the exam at the end. They are responsible for the boat and they are not using it commercially. They pay the examiner to come on board as a guest (we don't pay the examiner).The candidate is of course the skipper as it is him that is hoping to prove to the examiner that he is up to it.

I think 99% of sea schools run their exams this way. Certainly every school I have examined at, regardless of them being power, motor or sail exams.
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Old 06 November 2011, 05:06   #25
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Doug
Thank you for clarifying the position of a skipper aboard during the Advanced Powerboat Commercial examination.

Re the size/power of vessel used for the examination, I think there is room for the RYA to consider the position that if the 'driver's licence' they are examining is for commercial work then the vessel used should be to size and type relative to the licence. In the bus/coach world you don't take a test on a minibus and are then able to drive a 53 seater coach. When fitting out RIBs for coding we find it difficult to code a RIB for 12 + 2 sensibly with equipment and seats for all and fit it in a RIB less than 8.5m LOA.
I also appreciate that many commercial RIB operators act responsibly and vet all who drive for them to ensure they are 'to company standard'.
I appreciate the above is moving from the thread.

Tony
Tony, car/bus rules are bit of a mess, but you can probably drive a minibus with 17 seats despite sitting your test in a car that probably sat 4-5 (and could have been a 2 seater). The rules changed in 1997, (but even then most drivers can drive a minibus for charity/voluntary groups) - but you can now sit a "minibus test" in any vehicle with 9 seats. In any case those seats will all be empty during the test.

But I assume you are familiar with this part of the code:

Quote:
26.2.2 The possession of a Certificate of Competency or Service should not, on its own, be regarded as evidence of the ability to serve in a particular rank on a specific vessel. The owner(s)/managing agent(s) must ensure that there are sufficient trained personnel on board to work the vessel having due regard for the nature and duration of the voyage.
Is it not better to put the onus on you to assess and decide whether someone has all the relevant skills and experience for the job than to say well they have a 12+2 certificate so they must be fine (possibly having passed the test in that boat and never actually having driver with any real passengers on board). There's clearly a big difference between say taking 12 people out around Cowes week and running a dozen divers out to St Kilda - but any certificate based on "no of passengers" is unlikely to be able to differentiate between them.
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Old 06 November 2011, 14:09   #26
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[QUOTE=Doug Stormforce;428560

However putting operational advice aside your question really is to do with the coding. I think I quoted the relevant part of the code earlier in this thread which basically says that when you hire the vessel bareboat manning requirements do not apply (as long as the boat is not working commercially).

In effect when we run a prep week, we hire the students the boat for the exam at the end. They are responsible for the boat and they are not using it commercially. They pay the examiner to come on board as a guest (we don't pay the examiner).The candidate is of course the skipper as it is him that is hoping to prove to the examiner that he is up to it.

[/QUOTE]

Bareboat charter still a grey area for me I am afraid when schools hire coded boats to teach on and there are quite a few who dont own their own boats .
The boat is hired to the school ,how can they then rehire it to students the boat is not being used for pleasure but for training and at the end a exam .Even on boats that are owned by the school how can you get round the bareboat charter rule when they have paid you for training and an exam .
I never let any of my boats go out that I own or rent without someone onboard who is suitably qualified and the exams always start and end at the centre so perhaps I gave the wrong scenario but still applies if the Instructor steps off and examiner steps on.
Going to have to disagree with you Doug
Tim
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Old 10 November 2011, 17:14   #27
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I use my commercial MCA coded boats all the time for private trips and sometimes out of the coded area od the boat. I checked with my insurance and I am fine do so with the boat and as far as the MCA is concerned the boat is not being used for financial reward therfore it is a pleasure vessel and can be used as a pleasure vessel. I always carry all equipment on board that complies with coding anyway(there is no point in having it and not carrying it).
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