The Lulworth Cove "cowboy"

[vince]

IMHO the pictures speak for themselves. Definately NO lifejackets worn by anyone! That is bad practice, it lacks common sense, and it also shows no respect for the lives that are in your charge! He deserves to be slated in public!

[timw]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

And, to be brutally honest, I don't like you passing judgements on people's personality, and possibly also their business and livelyhood, in a public forum, when you clearly haven't got all the facts. If you don't like it, why not just leave them/us to it?

I don't believe I have passed judgement on anyone's business and livelyhood here...it is precisely this that others are doing on this Rib Operator in Lulworth Cove, including taking photographs of his operation and posting them on here for general comment.

It would have been interesting to hear his responses to these comments, but of course there is little chance of that.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by timw

I don't believe I have passed judgement on anyone's business and livelyhood here...it is precisely this that others are doing on this Rib Operator in Lulworth Cove, including taking photographs of his operation and posting them on here for general comment.

Soooooo.... At what point is it wrong to post pics on here of other people?
Should we only post pictures of people doing everything by the book?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by timw

I don't believe I have passed judgement on anyone's business and livelyhood here...it is precisely this that others are doing on this Rib Operator in Lulworth Cove, including taking photographs of his operation and posting them on here for general comment.

It would have been interesting to hear his responses to these comments, but of course there is little chance of that.

Tim - part of me agrees with you. BUT I see nothing wrong with someone posting a picture of what they consider to be bad practice as a topic for discussion. I also see nothing wrong with you challenging that and even calling someone a "traffic warden" which I assume isn't intended as a personality slight but rather a comment on the fact that they "enforce rules".

I agree that the operator should have the right to reply - perhaps JK will hunt him down - or someone here knows how to get hold of them?

If they are opperating within the limits of their coding then its just a discussion about what is the best practice in the opperation of a rib. if they are outside their coding then perhaps the person who was so concerned to post it here in the first place should be referring to the MCA.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by timw

I don't believe I have passed judgement on anyone's business and livelyhood here...it is precisely this that others are doing on this Rib Operator in Lulworth Cove, including taking photographs of his operation and posting them on here for general comment.

Yes you have. I wouldn't like to be a traffic warden with you around.

Perhaps I was unclear. What I should have said was I don't like your passing judgement, and then criticising others for doing the same. What is happening hear is a discussion of safe practice, legal practice, and the percieved quality of someone who would appear to be a rib charter operator. This is a ribbing forum after all. What you are doing is turning this discussion into an opportunity to degrade and otherwise castigate other forum members, simply because their ideas do not fit your own.

If you have no problems with the safety implications of a charter operator not using lifejackets, or a kill cord, fine. Many on this forum would disagree with you, but that is your opinion, and doubtless you have your own reason for holding it. But why not post your reasons, instead of simply calling people traffic wardens?

If I was the charter operator reading these posts, I would probably be concerned about the image it gives my company. But the only thing I could do about it, would be to change my operating procedures, and perhaps post on here to tell people I've changed them. That's happened before on web forums, and is a fairly transparent, and instructive way of doing business. I do not think these posts on this forum will have harmed his business in any way, as anyone here who think the posts make him look unsafe, wouldn't have paid for a rib excursion with him, regardless. He hasn't lost any customers - although it appears he may not have gained any either.

What you have to remember Tim, is that there are a lot of people on this forum who have made powerboating their profession, and with an industry as competetive and low margin, if you make it your profession, you make it your world. It naturally, therefore, grates, when you see a thriving business that is potentially running unsafely, as in addition to the threat to safety on board, accidents only result in more paperwork, rules, and restrictions, for your own operation. That's why people post such things on a forum, and that's why they are valued discussion points.

Originally Posted by timw

It would have been interesting to hear his responses to these comments, but of course there is little chance of that.

Yes, it would be interesting. I'd like to hear whether or not he thinks it is safe, the reasoning behind his decisions, and if, in light of these posts, he intends to change it.

Anyway, so far I haven't posted my opinion on these photos. The lack of lifejackets - possibly this wasn't an issue. In all photos the boat is lightly loaded, and travelling at a trolling speed. It could be that the Skipper made an assesment based on the weather conditions and itinery that meant he thought the risk from not wearing lifejackets was acceptable. It may not be a decision I would have made, but it may not have been incorrect.

The Kill Cord on the other hand - I find inexcusable. With a running engine, it is all to easy for someone to knock the boat into gear and on to full throttle, throwing the skipper back away from the controls, where a kill cord would be a handy means of stopping the rib. Also possible for the skipper to go overboard, and for the boat to torque steer back to him in the water running him over, there are plenty of risks, and there is no reason I can see, in this application, why it would be safer, or there would be a mimimum of risk, from not having the kill cord on.

Only my view - I welcome any thoughts.

[vince]

If something did happen to one of his unsuspecting passengers, and he then LOST his business because no-one wanted to trust him anymore, then that would be a tradgedy. All thats happening here, is that people are pointing out their obvious concern. Unless of course some on here think its all right to not have respect for human life? I cant understand why this mans actions should be defended....

[Aidan]

Not sure if I can see a Kill cord from the photos.

Meanwhile and I only ask, what is the rule about wearing Life Jackets in UK.
I seem to recall that Boats in excess of 7 Meters are exempt from mandetory wearing of same at least in Ireland.
In any event it makes sense to wear them especially where " Rides and wave jumping" are expected! Only asking mind!!!!!

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

The Kill Cord on the other hand .... ..., why it would be safer, or there would be a mimimum of risk, from not having the kill cord on.

Only my view - I welcome any thoughts.

Do all diesel ribs have kill cords (clearly they can't just ground the plugs as in a petrol)? I know its possible - but is it a "given" or might we be slagging the guy for not wearing a kill cord which actually doesn't exist?

Or is it a coding requirement anyway?

[Nos4r2]

http://www.jurassiccoast.com/downloa...st_by_boat.pdf

His advertising shows no-one in the rib with a lifejacket on....and he's advertising 'fast rib rides to Durdle Door".

Legal or not, it's a very bad image.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Polwart

Do all diesel ribs have kill cords (clearly they can't just ground the plugs as in a petrol)? I know its possible - but is it a "given" or might we be slagging the guy for not wearing a kill cord which actually doesn't exist?

Or is it a coding requirement anyway?

I am not sure on either point. The coding requirement question I will look up at work tomorrow. But yes, we might well be slagging the guy for not wearing a kill cord that doesn't exist!

edit: I say I'm not sure on either point. I know for a fact that not all diesel ribs have kill cords. Whether most/all/or what percentage of modern ones do, I don't know.

[Hugh Jardon]

i would personally not want to take my family on a fast rib ride without the basics like a fully functional and properly fitting life jacket and a driver wearing a kill cord.

unfortunatley for the people on that rib they may not be aware of some basic safety items that could save their lives or prevent injury. I think this forum is great in that it raises awareness of safety issues and draws your attention to things that might otherwise be missed.

[timw]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Tim, what qualifies you to call people on this forum traffic wardens? I'd quite like to see proof of your employment within perhaps an HR role, or at a Job Centre, or somewhere similar that means you are suitably equipped to pass judgement and typecast people as being of a traffic warden mindset. Until then, I'm afraid, you are clearly not qualified to pass judgement. Got to have a bit of paper these days.

**grabs tin helmet and ducks**

Apologies to all traffic wardens.

Jimbo, perhaps HR Managers and civil servants providing a fine service in The Job Centre need a little reassurance too.

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by timw

Jimbo, perhaps HR Managers and civil servants providing a fine service in The Job Centre need a little reassurance too.

Nice try, but let me point out, in case it wasn't sufficiently clear, that I was attempting to use sarcasm to illustrate a point. I've not used their employment as an insult, only an example.

Originally Posted by timw

Apologies to all traffic wardens.

Hopefully there will be some traffic wardens on here to accept your apology.

[Hugh Jardon]

not sure about traffic wardens, perhaps calling the cops would have been more appropriate with all the too and fro causing a disturbance

[timw]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

http://www.jurassiccoast.com/downloa...st_by_boat.pdf

His advertising shows no-one in the rib with a lifejacket on....and he's advertising 'fast rib rides to Durdle Door".

Legal or not, it's a very bad image.

Well researched.

So his telephone number is 01929 400 560

Perhaps someone who so freely passes comment on his operation may care to telephone him (or her) and advise him of this thread to allow him the opportunity to respond to these posts.

Any volunteers?

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by timw

Well researched.

So his telephone number is 01929 400 560

Perhaps someone who so freely passes comment on his operation may care to telephone him (or her) and advise him of this thread to allow him the opportunity to respond to these posts.

That sounds like a good idea - hopefully if phrased nicely, it serves two purposes. One, it gives him the right to respond, and 2, it points out some safety suggestions he may or may not wish to adopt.

I'll call in the morning.

[codprawn]

As regards kill cords one of the most respectable people in the RIB World used to be against them in certain situations - Shaun White. His reasoning was that in extreme seas for example the dangers of the engine cutting by accident would put you at very high risk.

I believe Jono may have experience of this from his capsize?

It HAS become the norm for people to wear lifejackets in RIBs - rightly so in my opinion BUT then again there are many cases where lifejackets are not worn on commercial craft - just carried.

How many people have been on boat trips on holiday - often ones where large quantities of booze are consumed - and not worn a lifejacket???

[Stoo]

I have resisted commenting on this thread because (a) I know nothing about coding, since we use a different system here and (b) you guys were having so much fun slagging each other.

Now that everyone has settled down I will say that a RIB tour outfit here in Tobermory (Canada) frequently uses their RIBs to ferry passengers from their larger steel tour boats to a dock, when water levels are too low to get the big boats in. The length of the trip is about 100 feet, and the water depth would average about 2 1/2 feet when water levels are low. If I was to take a picture of them at just the "right" time, you would see a loaded RIB with not a lifejacket in sight.

When the company (here) is using their RIBs as they should be (bombing around at 40 knots through rough seas) everyone on board is wearing either an auto-inflatable PFD or a full flotation suit if the weather is cold or wet.

My point is that it might not be fair to pass judgement on this guy by looking at a couple of photos taken adjacent to a wharf. Is it possible that he was simply ferrying his passengers a very short distance at slow speed? (Some would say that even under those circumstances, life-vests should be worn, but others would not...)

Also, and I don't mean to speak for Tim, but I took his comments to mean that it might not be appropriate to criticize a commercial enterprise in public, when the "offending" enterprise is unable to defend itself. I don't know the law there, but I suspect that such comments could result in legal action over here! (But then we are mighty close to the USA, so we are increasingly learning about litigation for the smallest of reasons!)

[Nauti Buoy]

I had a discussion with the MCGA this morning. They are aware of the rib operatiing out of Lulworth, he has been reported quite a few times for the way he operates and they have been down and satisfied themselves with his operation, also aware he does not insist the passengers wear lifejackets.

This is what the officer told me this morning:

Under the Merchant shipping Law there is no requirement for the passengers to wear or for the skipper to enforce his passengers to wear lifejackets. Apparently on the back of the seats on the rib are stickers for the passengers to read which say if you feel you would like a lifejacket the skipper will provide you with one.

As for the kill cord again there is no mandatory ruling that he has to use it, only personal preference and being sensible. Again there is no enforcement in place or guidelines that say he has to wear a kill cord.

SO there you have it, personally I am quite surprised at that answer. However I will as always make sure any of my passengers/crew wear lifejackets, if they refuse then simple they don't get on board.

[timw]

Obviously quite proper for you to tip off the MGCA about his operation: you must be relieved to hear that they have already satisfied themselves with it.

Now we must wait and hope that the operator can give us all his reasons for operating as he does as so much comment has been passed.