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Old 04 May 2007, 15:22   #91
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Originally Posted by Phil View Post
the only jury I would worry about is the one where the ribnet police are defending themselves against defamatory remarks

come on, lets ruin the guy; we know best even if the MCA won't act, we will in our capacity of babysitters for all things rib related
Ok, meet you in lulworth cove tomorrow morning...

we'll sneak up behind him, you throw a fishing net over him and i'll club him round the head with a canister from an auto-inflate life jacket.

that'll teach him.
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Old 04 May 2007, 15:46   #92
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i dont think it says they are proper fitting lifejackets, just life jackets! and unless you can see what they look like first they may not be confidence inspiring.
Are you saying that his lifejackets are not properly fitting or safe? Unless you have knowledge of this operation you haven't shared here - then I think you just jumped to a massive and probably grossly unfair assumption.
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Old 04 May 2007, 16:58   #93
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Are you saying that his lifejackets are not properly fitting or safe? Unless you have knowledge of this operation you haven't shared here - then I think you just jumped to a massive and probably grossly unfair assumption.
errrrr no

if you cant see em and see folks wearing em cos they are tucked away in a box it is difficult to know if they are ok....thats all.

my concern on properly fitting life jackets is for my 4 and 6 year old and would a boat have sufficient jackets of the right size for the little ones especially if a few families went on one trip....possibly not

so to wrap up ....... i would probably not pay someone to go for a trip on their rib anyway....whats the point when you have one anyway....and if i did i would probably prefer my kids wear their own lifejackets as i know they are the right size and fitment.

i do not know the guy or operation and have nothing against him and wish him all the luck.
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Old 05 May 2007, 13:47   #94
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Ramblings

1. If the chap who runs the boat employed someone to go on the boat with him they would have to wear a life jacket. If they helmed, they (and maybe he), would have to wear a kill cord. Why? Because employer would be obliged to do risk assessment and inevitably risk of employee being thrown from boat would be highest risk factor, reduced to minimum by these steps.
2. In many situations criminal law is driven by civil law - eg passenger injured and not wearing seatbelt got reduced damages long before it was obligatory to wear seat belts. Cycling helmets is current battleground of "choice v nanny state". So where is civil law likely to stand on this?
3. Common law would consider in event of passenger injury whether failure to insist on passengers wearing them was negligent on basis of what reasonable commercial operators would do. If vast majority of other operators of ribs insist passengers wear them he would probably be negligent (small consolation if serious/fatal injury). Interestingly (?) it isn't to my knowledge criminal offence not to insure your boat against third party risks to passengers, even for commercial operators (I might be wrong). Maybe local trading standards on South coast insist on insurance if there are local by-laws etc.
4 My observation of many rib users (especially under parenting age) is they don't wear jackets.
5 I think he is criminally negligent in not insisting all children wear them but if adults/parents are made aware of risks and offered use of them and decline, I don't think the law is against him. I would like him to confirm he has third party insurance if anyone has the bottle to ring him.
6 Maybe RIbnet should promote Private Members Bill to get wearing life jackets obligatory, as well as testing/licensing for all powerboat drivers.
That's enough for one post!
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Old 05 May 2007, 15:35   #95
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6 Maybe RIbnet should promote Private Members Bill to get wearing life jackets obligatory, as well as testing/licensing for all powerboat drivers.
Oh feck thats gone and done it

Actually the govening body for the sport is in favour of education rather than legislation, if this was applied across other areas then we could have more teachers and less lawyers, something most on here would approve of I suspect. Oh I have just seen your profile

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4 My observation of many rib users (especially under parenting age) is they don't wear jackets.
My observation of many rib users is they do wear life jackets. In the early days we didn't even own them, let alone use them. The early rules for BIBOA never mentioned them. Over the past few years there has been an acceptance that since things can go pear shaped rather quickly on a rib its a good idea to wear one. I am sure if you look through the galley forum you would find many more photos of peeps with than without.

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Old 05 May 2007, 15:42   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richyrich View Post
1. If the chap who runs the boat employed someone to go on the boat with him they would have to wear a life jacket. If they helmed, they (and maybe he), would have to wear a kill cord. Why? Because employer would be obliged to do risk assessment and inevitably risk of employee being thrown from boat would be highest risk factor, reduced to minimum by these steps.
2. In many situations criminal law is driven by civil law - eg passenger injured and not wearing seatbelt got reduced damages long before it was obligatory to wear seat belts. Cycling helmets is current battleground of "choice v nanny state". So where is civil law likely to stand on this?
3. Common law would consider in event of passenger injury whether failure to insist on passengers wearing them was negligent on basis of what reasonable commercial operators would do. If vast majority of other operators of ribs insist passengers wear them he would probably be negligent (small consolation if serious/fatal injury). Interestingly (?) it isn't to my knowledge criminal offence not to insure your boat against third party risks to passengers, even for commercial operators (I might be wrong). Maybe local trading standards on South coast insist on insurance if there are local by-laws etc.
4 My observation of many rib users (especially under parenting age) is they don't wear jackets.
5 I think he is criminally negligent in not insisting all children wear them but if adults/parents are made aware of risks and offered use of them and decline, I don't think the law is against him. I would like him to confirm he has third party insurance if anyone has the bottle to ring him.
6 Maybe RIbnet should promote Private Members Bill to get wearing life jackets obligatory, as well as testing/licensing for all powerboat drivers.
That's enough for one post!
WHY ?
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Old 05 May 2007, 16:58   #97
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Originally Posted by richyrich View Post
1. If the chap who runs the boat employed someone to go on the boat with him they would have to wear a life jacket. If they helmed, they (and maybe he), would have to wear a kill cord. Why? Because employer would be obliged to do risk assessment and inevitably risk of employee being thrown from boat would be highest risk factor, reduced to minimum by these steps.
No thats a typical lawyers approach to risk assesment!

In reality he is only required to take "action" to address any 'real' risk - not every possible eventuality. There are thousands and thousands of commerical rib trips made every year. I doubt that if the boat is being driven in a "controlled" fashion that the "skipper" has ever been ejected from a large boat like this fitted with jockey seats - when opperating in sheltered waters.

Quote:
5 I think he is criminally negligent in not insisting all children wear them but if adults/parents are made aware of risks and offered use of them and decline, I don't think the law is against him. I would like him to confirm he has third party insurance if anyone has the bottle to ring him.
I am amazed that with your occupation you would make such a statement - especially based on limited evidence. You are implying that he doesn't have 3rd party insurance (which I think is unlikely). You are suggesting that he has primary responsibility for the children in his "care" but not the "adults". I assume children don't come unaccompanied.

His phone number is in the thread if you want to discuss it with him. in fact - you could potentially offer him your professional services - but I suspect he won't really want legal representation from someone taking such a partial position.
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Old 05 May 2007, 17:02   #98
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4 My observation of many rib users (especially under parenting age) is they don't wear jackets.
I'm not sure what you meant by under parenting age?

but if you meant under 16 (round here they start younger than that!) then can't say I have seen many ribs used by under 16s unless supervised in some way (even if "remotely") and can't think of ever seeing a teenager without a l/jacket driving a rib.
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Old 06 May 2007, 11:13   #99
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Whether you think he is a cowboy or not isn't the point - and it's just your opinion.

I run a commercial RIB, all my passengers wear life-jackets. According to my coding, I just have to carry them - but if I lost someone over the side during a trip, the chances of them pausing long enough to put one on is quite small - - so I make all passengers wear them. My decision.

The guy isn't breaking the law - if he was, the MCA would shut him down - it isn't in their interest to let him continue to operate illegally.

Is he operating responsibly - well, it would appear perhaps not (from 3 grainy photos) - but I'm aware of operators that have been asked to move away from the boarding area to kit up allow other traffic to embark passengers - so without knowing the full picture (pardon the pun) - it's a difficult call.

Incidentally - before the correct fitting debate goes too far - the coding states that Lifejackets have to conform to EN396 - which I seem to remember means that they are adjustable to fit all shapes/sizes, or are sized for a particular build (small/med/large etc) - so the correct fitting debate isn't relevant if he doesn't make people wear them. If he has jackets, they can be fitted correctly.

And if I was him, I probably wouldn't appear on here to defend myself - as many appear to have already decided what they think. I'd probably read it, and then if I thought that any of the advice was worth listening to, implement it.

(Is anyone going back to Lulworth soon to see if anything changes?!? )

D...
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Old 06 May 2007, 14:17   #100
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""when opperating in sheltered waters""

That is certainly not lulworthy...!!
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